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DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 10:41 AM
Hi guys,

As some of you know I'm a sucker for old cast iron things and when those items are small machines if i can afford it I can't help myself. So I have just acquired another basket case.

It was an Aussie made shaper known as a MIT-A-MIT and as I have been wanting a small shaper I'm hoping to restore it to being one. Unfortunately someone has removed the head/ram and clap box etc and made the thing into a power hacksaw.

Only two references come up on google, one here for a Brace (Drill) and the other is for the shaper on Lathes.uk. http://www.lathes.co.uk/mit-a-mit/




Built during the 1930s and 1940s by the Metalcraft Engineering Company of Sydney, Australia, the Mit-A-Mit shaper was very similar in design to the later English Perfecto (http://www.lathes.co.uk/shapers/page2.html). The machine appears to have been heavily constructed for serious (if small work) with decent pulleys in cast iron, a strong built-on countershaft and even a hole bored through the bed casting from front to back to allow the insertion of shafts to be key-cut The stroke length is not known - but was probably around 7 inches.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/mit-a-mit/img4.jpghttp://www.lathes.co.uk/mit-a-mit/img2.jpghttp://www.lathes.co.uk/mit-a-mit/img1.jpghttp://www.lathes.co.uk/mit-a-mit/img0.jpghttp://www.lathes.co.uk/mit-a-mit/img3.jpg





So now you know as what it should look like and are probably more familiar with shapers than I am. What likely hood is there of making this thing work as a shaper again on limited budget? Or do you think it will be a waste of time? Also would a new head cast in Aluminium or brass/bronze be suitable or does it need the weight of cast iron to do the job?

This is mine I'm picking up Sunday.


http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/GqkAAOSwPcVVq21r/$_57.JPGhttp://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/XOMAAOSw9N1Vq21v/$_57.JPGhttp://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/XMYAAOSwLVZVq215/$_57.JPGhttp://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/hBUAAOSwu4BVq212/$_57.JPG


I figure at worst I scrap the machine and take the three sided angle plate, motor, vise, and any other recyclable parts. But I really bought it with the intention to have it as a shaper would love to get it working.

DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 10:55 AM
My thoughts are the clapper box can be fabricated, and I may be able to find an old topslide on the cheap to fit it to, which just leaves the ram and I guess that could also be fabricated rather than cast?

.RC.
30th Jul 2015, 10:58 AM
Very interesting shaper...

I could caption this picture though..


--------------------------------------------------------------




Oh God what is he buying now!!!! :D





http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/XOMAAOSw9N1Vq21v/$_57.JPG

DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 12:47 PM
Nah that is the sellers photo..

DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 12:50 PM
I think I am going to have to leave the bench behind and disassemble the machine and make two trips with it in the boot of the girlfriend's holden cruze. Otherwise the load may be to heavy in one go?? Any thoughts?

jmebgo
30th Jul 2015, 01:19 PM
There's a few videos on youtube from memory.

AndrewOC
30th Jul 2015, 02:20 PM
G'day Dale,
TTTG recently had an article in in the 'News' about Mit-a-mit. We have in our collection a small, very well made, surface plate by that company. A member also has another small precision tool by them (forgotten what..).
Appear to be one of those engineering firms that flourished due to shortages of imports and Government contracts during the world wars.
I wonder how big the shaper ram should be? Would it be possible to modify the ram from a scrapped Douglas / Lock size machine? Clapper box is easy part- just large-ish lumps of steel.
regs,
AndrewOC

DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 02:34 PM
Hi Andrew,

If you have a copy to scan I wouldn't mind reading that article.

I believe the sober to be 7" so another ram may fit or be made to if I could find a scrapped one.

AndrewOC
30th Jul 2015, 04:10 PM
It won't hurt if you join!!
I'll see if I can find it, stuff gets buried in my 'library'.
A.

DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 04:51 PM
TTTG is the wrong state for me. I do occasionally get along the the HTPAA.

craftsman12
30th Jul 2015, 05:41 PM
I am feeling slightly pleased with myself that the photos from an Ebay ad for a Mit-a-Mit shaper which I sent to Tony at Lathes.co several years ago are now proving useful for DSEL in working out what to do with his new purchase. At the time I had of course never heard of this Australian machine tool and following a thread on PM about the history of Australian machine tool making at the time, thought it would be worth trying to find a way to enshrine on the Web something about this manufacturer, and Tony was good enough to create the present Mit-a-Mit page on his site.

Cheers,

Adriaan

Simplicity
30th Jul 2015, 06:07 PM
Wow nice one Dale
I've got no idea how you find these things.
Will look great done up
Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 06:32 PM
Well Adriaan, you have my Thanks!

Matt it's called being the only bidder on eBay and knowing what it really was thanks to Adriaan.

There are 3 videos on utube I found thanks to the post tipping me off.

Michael G
30th Jul 2015, 06:55 PM
What likely hood is there of making this thing work as a shaper again on limited budget? Or do you think it will be a waste of time? Also would a new head cast in Aluminium or brass/bronze be suitable or does it need the weight of cast iron to do the job?

Now personally I would not dream of buying an old clapped out machine with half the parts missing and hoping to get it working, but that's just me...:yeahright: :no:

The ram and clapper box can probably be steel. I would suggest CI for the main body, but that would be me trying to get it looking vaguely original. Shapers are not complex machines so you could get it working. If you could find a complete one and get some measurements, you would be ahead, but even with the bits you have and the photos you have, you could scale parts well enough to get the proportions right.

Looking forward to reading about the project (and assisting where possible)

Michael

WCD
30th Jul 2015, 07:44 PM
If it was mine, I would be very tempted to get the ram done as an iron casting. The shape is not overly complex and I think would not need a core, it would look authentic and minimise machining, as well as being the best material for the slideway surface. The tool slide could be made from continuous cast iron bar, with some of the same advantages.

Cheers,
Bill

DSEL74
30th Jul 2015, 11:44 PM
I'd like to get it in cast iron but I think it will cost a bit. More chance of casting in aluminium at a home foundry or fabricating one.

.RC.
31st Jul 2015, 09:27 AM
I'd like to get it in cast iron but I think it will cost a bit. More chance of casting in aluminium at a home foundry or fabricating one.

Depending on size you could buy a piece of round cast iron bar and machine it out of that..

matthew_g
31st Jul 2015, 04:52 PM
Dale,
At the very very worst, you have bought yourself an extremely unique power hacksaw.:D

Stustoys
31st Jul 2015, 06:30 PM
Dale,
At the very very worst, you have bought yourself an extremely unique power hacksaw.:D
It would be great for heavy stock, just clamp it some where close, then move the head to get the size you want. Nice ;)

Stuart

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 10:05 AM
I managed to get it home. Which meant breaking it down into smaller parts to move. According to Tony's website the Perfecto which is a later usa copy weighs 130lbs (58kgs) for the motorised version. I was able to just carry the main body from a standing position lifting from the bench. When I got home I fell as it was too heavy for me to walk up the three steps into the shed. So I left it on the floor while I recovered for a few hrs. I can't lift it from the ground at all. Luckily I fell up the stairs into the doorway of the shed and now had access to the engine crane. So I very much dispute the 58kgs, as I can lift a 75kg anvil from the floor and on a good day I can pick up my 105kg anvil and put it on its stump.

The little machine is a bit more worse for wear than I had thought.

On the right handside of the front way you can see a small chip of the corner, well taht one I did when I fell the rest of it landed on me.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/f4418dc41232a21fb508e25d2b7bcbd5.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/b2ad90574d40d475cb96f53ad1b2a14b.jpg

The arm is broken on both sides and has bars bolted to the back for reinforcing. oddly only one side has been brazed.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/7778578cfa28400c66c6d4ee1e145962.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/f3f0b2ab83bf1039a183bd914e443584.jpg

The bracket has a huge amount of brazing
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/7d8339483bef5fe99786f181e1fd7bfb.jpg


The guard also is cracked all the way around the boss. I thought I may have done this but on inspection it was full of dirt and oil etc, so was again old damage.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/00293dba4e3c9026712f7f80906076a7.jpg

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 10:10 AM
The automated ratchet has also be removed or partially removed to facilitate the hacksaw not moving with each stroke of it's cut.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/83c5c6e69c733e112be6f95e2b5441e5.jpg

This is the Hacksaw part that was replacing the ram.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/c4b7629ce6e84184146181f00924bd30.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/3ecc6d6b14b88b19cd95ea9c7990231a.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/f3e26af3c302745ff3e37fd2f7b0269d.jpg

The Table is in good nick. I think it is cast, but looks like it has original welds. I think the pattern may have been made from a steel fabrication and some of the welds can be seen in the casting which is quite interesting.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/78990088866c4286ab6a0688d91c76dd.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/c38d308b0f0b7232cfea3a845af4f587.jpg

The painted over badge says war finish. (It is in a different position to the one on Tony's site.)
I'm curious about this and will try looking it up.

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 10:27 AM
A side note the serial number I was told probably means Build 87 3 (march) '43 (1943)

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 11:50 AM
From what I have been able to find war finish mean't lean production and of course differs from country of manufacture as deemed by their government.

WPB Limitation Order No. L-108
VICTORY
Official Weekly Bulletin Of The Agencies In The Office For Emergency Management
Washington, D.C.
May 5, 1942
Volume 3, Number 18

Fancy painting and finishing of metal-working machinery banned

Fancy painting and finishing of metalworking machinery by machine tool builders were to be banned after April 30, the WPB announced April 27. Limitation Order No. L-108, effective April 27, provides that only one coat of primer or sealer may be applied to new metal-working equipment. No filler may be applied and not more than two coats of paint, enamel, or lacquer may be used. Any color other than "old machine-tool gray" for the final coat of paint is prohibited. The order was Issued, the Board stated, to reduce the time required for delivery of machine tools and to free the space now used for finishing, for more productive work.


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IQ__YNG8ebE/URjzkPhczvI/AAAAAAAADuw/qG9UQ8VI2i4/s1280/IMG_20130210_093753_621.jpg




It in some cases also meant that no aluminium was allowed to be used in manufacture and was substituted with cast iron. Some countries deemed all machines were painted the same color green as opposed to the gray above. Often bronze bushings were left out and shafts ran directly in the castings.

Another factor was the labour used was often unskilled women drawn into work as the skilled men were sent to war.

Interestingly the War finish notation was applied in various forms from a note painted on, to cast embossed latter, or simple riveted on badges to elaborate cast brass plaques. Some simply stated war finish whole other included an apology for the lack of finish due to stipulated regulations.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f19/106816d1399579812-images-war-finish-labels-tags-leblond-regal-13-war_finish_original-sm.jpg

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 12:58 PM
354696



OK can you guys help me figure this out??

The Ram length C should be = to D+E
If B = E then the tool protrudes over the table and doesn't start at the edge reducing work envelope.



The slot G = the table length F = Stroke length.
So how do I determine the length of the drive rod H and the position of the slot G to the ram? The slot doesn't seem to be centred over the end of the ram.
Would G = the radius of the large gear driving the rod??



I can measure only D,E,F, so the rest must be calculated.


The Blue one in this photo is ends in '45 and has extra details in the casting like the go fast lines on the top of the ram, it also has extra embossed decorations on the front. It has no war finish badge. I'm not sure what the bracket is behind the ratchet??




On mine and the two others I have some photos of they have two pairs of holes, one pair at each end of the bed. I have not seen anything attached to these and wonder what they are for??
http://www.lathes.co.uk/mit-a-mit/img1.jpg
Scratch that they are oiler holes as they sit in the casting directly above the ends of the shafts

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 01:37 PM
Ratchet and gears are missing. :-( http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/67c1c4e8689f225522e4554c016404fc.jpg

Wonder if I can get size and no# teeth. If I can find some that will work from something else?? Can't make any as you need a shaper |-O

KBs PensNmore
3rd Aug 2015, 03:46 PM
Thanks for showing what's left of your piece of equipment, should be a good machine, once all the bits come together. I'm sure there will be plenty of offers to help make your lost parts.:2tsup:
In the photo marked Ratios, where did you get the photos from? Would it be possible to ask them for the relevant details?
Kryn

Stustoys
3rd Aug 2015, 06:27 PM
Hi Dale,
I dont have a tow bar but I could have helped lift it into your shed!

Stroke length is the diameter of the bull gear(minus a little)
In a perfect world ram length would be D+stroke.(but the factory one doesn't look to be nearly that long)

Stuart

Michael G
3rd Aug 2015, 06:56 PM
Ratchet and gears are missing. Wonder if I can get size and no# teeth. If I can find some that will work from something else??

Measure the diameter of the gear (in inches) you have and count the number of teeth (n). It looks a bit worn but OD=(n+2)/DP; also PCD=n/DP (formula from memory)

Measure the centre to centre distance of the two stubs to the centre of the gear you have. DP is the same, so for each one n1/PCD1 = n2/PCD2. You can calculate the PCD for the small gear and using that and the centre distance calculate the other PCD. Solve for n

Michael

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 07:14 PM
The bull gear is 220mm Dia. The saddle length D is 265mm.

I'm thinking the slot in the ram should be half the bull wheel as that is the max adjustment possible?

Also does he slot in he ram have the same centreline as the centre of the bull wheel,or doesn't it matter?


I'll measure those pins & gear. The gear that is there is attached o the bull gear. The sub below is fixed n the casting and the one to the rear is part of the feed screw. The ratchet sits on the feed screw (if you have one).
Would I be right in thinking the Bull gear drives the fixed stub and that drives the gear on the feed screw & ratchet?? Is there a reason or the fixed pin instead of having jus two gears? Change in ratio is my thought.

Michael G
3rd Aug 2015, 07:28 PM
Hard to say - needs some better pics (or someone with vision super powers), but I'd say that the shaft is connected to the small gear, which then drives the large. On the back of the large is a cam that drives a lever. The lever pivots on the ratchet shaft and on the other end is the ratchet knob. One way the ratchet clicks over the ratchet gear, the other way the ratchet locks and so the cam on the large gear pushes on the leaver and so advances the speed.

I was mistaken in my last post in this regard as I thought the train was all three axles - the ratchet gear obviously can't mesh or it won't work:doh:

If you had a different cam profile on the back of the large gear, you could change your feed rates

Michael

DSEL74
3rd Aug 2015, 07:44 PM
Going by the first photos of the white on from Tony's site, I think the ratchet is just a spring loaded pin.

Michael G
3rd Aug 2015, 07:47 PM
It is, with a thing like a door latch on the end so it ramps over one way, catches the other. The pin can be rotated so that it can feed either way.

Kryn, are you able to post some photos of the Elliott's ratchet - it looks like it would be very similar.

Michael

KBs PensNmore
3rd Aug 2015, 10:01 PM
Not a problem Michael, it's not home at the moment, in storage as trying to find room for it. Can do in the next day or so.
Kryn

Stustoys
3rd Aug 2015, 11:15 PM
As far as teeth numbers go you could cheat and count the teeth to find out the ratio on the bull gear. The ratio has to be the same on the feed gear train right?



If you had a different cam profile on the back of the large gear, you could change your feed rates
not sure a simple cam will do the job Micheal. more of an eccentric.
As you can only adjust the feed in full clicks. On my shaper its either one, two or three clicks(I think I can just get three if I manually take out the backlash) How about something like this?(bearing in mind the arm lengths and angles aren't even best guess, just what was easiest to draw ;) )

Not exactly a Bob sketch.

Stuart

Michael G
4th Aug 2015, 07:59 AM
...not sure a simple cam will do the job Michael. more of an eccentric.

Cam (with spring)/ eccentric - what ever works best. The key thing is that there needs to be a rocking motion imparted to the ratchet. To change feed speeds the throw of the 'thing' will need to be different. I guess one way would be to mount a disc on the back of the gear with slots so the disc centre can be slid closer or further from the centre of rotation. Even if the lever moves 3 1/2 notches, it will only advance the cam 3 notches as it's about the ratchet latch being able to sprag something.

Michael

DSEL74
5th Aug 2015, 12:00 PM
I have been trying to plan out how to rebuild this as a shaper and I have a question in regards to the clapper & box, some of you may know the answer.

In most of the designs (9-10 I have found details of) the clapper is attached to the box and pivots/rocks on a taper pin, with two locking nuts on the end. What is the benefit of the taper pin over a straight pin?
The only thing I could come up with is the taper may help maintain an even gap either side of clapper.

I guess the pin would also be hardened?

From an Atlas 7B
355011
Now to find out what a #8 Taper is and hod do you bore one?




In this design the ram is a hollow casting.
355009355010

So how much actual weight is needed in the ram? Would a solid one be better with more gravity to hold it down and reduce likelihood of chatter or just take more work to push with negligible benefits as long as it is rigid.



I measured the small gear and the Dia of the shaft is 13.5mm, the gear is 10 teeth with a tooth to tooth diagonal measurement of 12mm, and 10mm at the base of the teeth.
The shaft which the ratchet works on is 15.5mm Dia. and edge to edge from the gear is 20.25mm, it is close enough to being on the same centreline.
The fixed stub is 12.75mm and there is 34mm edge to edge below the gear….I forgot to measure the offset or if it is directly below.

Stustoys
5th Aug 2015, 01:34 PM
Now to find out what a #8 Taper is and hod do you bore one?

You wouldn't bore it. You'd ream it.





What is the benefit of the taper pin over a straight pin?

When the hole in the block wears, you ream it again so the pin goes a little deeper and "tightens things up" (or at least thats my understanding of it)



So how much actual weight is needed in the ram? Would a solid one be better with more gravity to hold it down and reduce likelihood of chatter or just take more work to push with negligible benefits as long as it is rigid.

I think you'd be better off with a hollow one.......but thats a WAG.
Am I right in thinking that rotation of the clapper box slide is locked from the back of the ram?

Stuart

DSEL74
5th Aug 2015, 02:31 PM
You wouldn't bore it. You'd ream it.

Ok but do you need to buy a special reamer? Or do you have to make it like a D bit? Is there an easy solution for a 1 of?





I think you'd be better off with a hollow one.......but thats a WAG.
Am I right in thinking that rotation of the clapper box slide is locked from the back of the ram?

Stuart

WAG?
Yes and No. In that design shown in photos of castings above, NO. The Slide has a shaft that fits into he front of the ram and it has a Vee groove in it where one side of the Vee is 90 deg so it looks like a blind external taper. There is a locking screw directly above which pushes a wedge against this. The wedge then both draws the shaft in and clamps it down.

The MIT-A-MIT, has a nut/bolt head at the end of the ram in the photos. I assume this is attached to the slide for the same purpose

Others have Tee slots in the face of the ram , of course thee ones have limited rotation.


I'm still undecided which will be the easiest way or me to proceed with mine.




My CAD model so far.

DSEL74
5th Aug 2015, 03:01 PM
This one like the MIT-A-Mit has the nut on the back.
355018


Some sort of eccentric cam from above.
355019

Again a cam but from the side.

355020


Attaches to Tee Slots
355021


This one goes with the castings and shows the mech I mentioned
355022



Clamped down with the top block.
355023

Stustoys
5th Aug 2015, 03:34 PM
Ok but do you need to buy a special reamer? Or do you have to make it like a D bit? Is there an easy solution for a 1 of?
I'm guessing you'll have to make one as I'm guessing even if they are available they wont be cheap, but you never know. I wonder(and I could be way off here), for a one off in cast if you could modify a tapered pin to use as a reamer?



WAG?

Wild ass guess




Yes and No.
The MIT-A-MIT, has a nut/bolt head at the end of the ram in the photos. I assume this is attached to the slide for the same purpose

Yeah I meant the one on the first page, The one above is off a "normal" shaper.

Stuart

DSEL74
5th Aug 2015, 03:59 PM
Yeah I meant the one on the first page, The one above is off a "normal" shaper.

Stuart

The one on the first page is same as mine. But I haven't seen that parts as obviously mine is missing and haven't seen another or had confirmation.

So I'm guessing that is what the Nut/Bolt on the back is for. I can't see another reason for it to be there at this stage.



Your welcome to drop by and have a look at what is here, just give me a call before you come.

Steamwhisperer
5th Aug 2015, 09:37 PM
Ok but do you need to buy a special reamer? Or do you have to make it like a D bit? Is there an easy solution for a 1 of?
Hi Dale
I can supply a threaded taper pin and reamer when you get to that stage.
All I need is the diameter at the big end and the length of the hole.
The reason for the taper pin is so that it will lock fast in the two outer holes and the clapper is then reamed slightly oversize so that it swings without any play.
When the whole thing wears out a slightly larger pin is made and the holes reamed again.

Phil

Michael G
5th Aug 2015, 10:05 PM
I measured the small gear and the Dia of the shaft is 13.5mm, the gear is 10 teeth with a tooth to tooth diagonal measurement of 12mm, and 10mm at the base of the teeth.
The shaft which the ratchet works on is 15.5mm Dia. and edge to edge from the gear is 20.25mm, it is close enough to being on the same centreline.
The fixed stub is 12.75mm and there is 34mm edge to edge below the gear.

I've tossed some numbers around, made a few guesses, the odd assumption, had a drink or two and think that the missing gear is a 24DP gear with 81 teeth.
(WAG on a day with a tail wind etc etc.)

For the ratchet wheel I think I'd be assuming that it was a convenient sized gear but with half the tooth height removed - diameter would not be critical.

Michael

jmebgo
6th Aug 2015, 05:22 PM
Dale,

Further to the PM earlier (your inbox is now full)...

I found the other shaper via this link. It has more details there.

http://www.smex.net.au/ForSaleMachinery_AU.php

Joe

KBs PensNmore
6th Aug 2015, 05:42 PM
For that price I'd buy it, use it to copy and make the new parts, then flog one of them off. Problem solvered.:D At least you'll get your money back.:2tsup:
Kryn

DSEL74
6th Aug 2015, 06:36 PM
Phil, Thanks for the info & I'll keep you in mind for the pin.

Joe, Cheers, I have sent him a message and will see if I get a response.

Michael, Why do you think the ratchet will have half height teeth? I assume by 24DP you mean a circle scribed half height of the teeth at 24mm Dia.

Kryn, At $600 I won't be buying it to do that. Also his doesn't have an original table, that is the one thing mine has got.

Michael G
6th Aug 2015, 08:36 PM
I'm guessing that a gear with 1/2 high teeth would do because that would give you the stubby looking form that you can see on the photo. There would be other ways of making a suitable ratchet wheel but that seems a reasonably simple way of doing it to me if you are cutting gears. You could also drill a series of holes around a circle, turn off half the holes and that would probably do the same thing.

24DP stands for 24 dimetrial pitch - so it describes the gear in terms that someone who cuts gears would understand and use as the basis for making one. A 24 DP gear will have 24 involute form teeth when the gear has a 1" pitch circle diameter (PCD). The PCD does not run through the mid height of the tooth although it is close. (The gullet between teeth is slightly deeper to give some clearance to the tooth tip).

Michael

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 02:36 AM
Ok from the photo I calculate the gears to be 60T, 10T, 30T. Yep the ratchet gear/cog does have shot teeth.
355523

It looks like the ratchet bracket can be slid up out of use. I can't workout why the locking bolt is fitted to a second bracket that goes behind the gears rather than into the casting.
355524355525355526


Still short on dimensions to work from for the missing parts but slowly piecing the puzzle together.

Michael G
7th Aug 2015, 07:53 AM
Clear photos - that's better.
60t or 81t I nearly had it :doh:

The bolt you can see is the arrangement that Stuart sketched.

So far I look to be about 100% wrong...

Stuart - what else has it got?

Michael

PS - just re did the calculations (literally on the back of an envelope) and they agree with the first set. Is that 'edge to edge' measurement that you have given an outside measurement? (that is, diameter + diameter + gap between) or between the shafts (which would equate to C to C distance - (radius shaft 1 + radius shaft 2). Measurements are with a set of digital calipers?

Stustoys
7th Aug 2015, 09:58 AM
Damn! talk about ass!

I'm not 100% convinced about your 60 tooth count, but if the bull gear has 90 teeth(which is my best guess) and the gear driving it has 15 then it has to be right. but 62 and 93 would work also.. While I'm less convinced about 62, I cant make 61 work.


I always thought the teeth of the "gear" the ratchet engaged in were just straight slots? I'll have a closer look at mine when I get out there.

Stuart


I never mentioned what I didnt like about the spring Micheal.....the way I was seeing it, it would only work in one direction.

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 11:24 AM
Clear photos - that's better.
60t or 81t I nearly had it :doh:

The bolt you can see is the arrangement that Stuart sketched.

So far I look to be about 100% wrong...

Stuart - what else has it got?

Michael

PS - just re did the calculations (literally on the back of an envelope) and they agree with the first set. Is that 'edge to edge' measurement that you have given an outside measurement? (that is, diameter + diameter + gap between) or between the shafts (which would equate to C to C distance - (radius shaft 1 + radius shaft 2). Measurements are with a set of digital calipers?


Shft O|<----->|O Inside gap from edge of shaft to edge of shaft doesn't include any of the shaft. So you would need to add half of each shaft to get centre to centre.

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 11:31 AM
As far as teeth numbers go you could cheat and count the teeth to find out the ratio on the bull gear. The ratio has to be the same on the feed gear train right?

not sure a simple cam will do the job Micheal. more of an eccentric.
As you can only adjust the feed in full clicks. On my shaper its either one, two or three clicks(I think I can just get three if I manually take out the backlash) How about something like this?(bearing in mind the arm lengths and angles aren't even best guess, just what was easiest to draw ;) )

Not exactly a Bob sketch.

Stuart


Trying to get my head around this. The ratchet wheel doesn't mesh with the gears. Would the the eccentric part of stuarts sketch be offset from the gear PCD. SO the hole in stuarts sketch would be the centre of the gear?

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 11:50 AM
Damn! talk about ass!

I'm not 100% convinced about your 60 tooth count, but if the bull gear has 90 teeth(which is my best guess) and the gear driving it has 15 then it has to be right. but 62 and 93 would work also.. While I'm less convinced about 62, I cant make 61 work.


I always thought the teeth of the "gear" the ratchet engaged in were just straight slots? I'll have a closer look at mine when I get out there.



I split the main gear as shown through the points of the naut and counted 30T allowing for one tooth on the line then doubled it. Due to the angle ad distortion of the photos I could easily be out by 2 teeth for your 62T.

Where does the 15 come in? The end of the Bull shaft has 10T.
355533
I still get 60T though from the photo.

The Ratchet wheel teeth do look ALMOST square on the MIT but I think that is because the height of the teeth is so short. It does look to me that it is a normal gear with the diameter turned down making the teeth shorter.

Stustoys
7th Aug 2015, 12:32 PM
I split the main gear as shown
Yeah but it depends exactly where you draw the line. It starts on the left on the back of the tooth(bottom) and ends on the right on the front of the tooth(also bottom) thats not right. I cant see how it could be 62 though.
You know you only have 59 dots right? ;) you got off track on the white dots at the bottom and are out by half a tooth on the right hand side. So Its pretty much got to be 60.

15 comes in on the shaft driving the bull gear
The bull gear and the 60 tooth gear have to spin at the same rpm. So 6 turns of a 10 tooth* gear on a 60 tooth gear will give one turn. If the bull gear has 90 teeth, the gear on the shaft has to have 15 teeth.(this assumes there isnt an extra compound gear in there but I doubt that, it would still have to end up a 6:1 ratio)

I've tried to improve the sketch. It may help...... now don't you wish I could draw like BT?

pictures of my gear didnt turn out. back out for a second go

Stuart

*I'm not sure the shaft the 10t gear is on the bull shaft....... isnt the bull gear the biggest, the one the conrod connects to? So the bull shaft would be the one its on..... could be wrong though

Stustoys
7th Aug 2015, 01:13 PM
.

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 01:13 PM
Yeah but it depends exactly where you draw the line. It starts on the left on the back of the tooth(bottom) and ends on the right on the front of the tooth(also bottom) thats not right. I cant see how it could be 62 though.
You know you only have 59 dots right? ;) you got off track on the white dots at the bottom and are out by half a tooth on the right hand side. So Its pretty much got to be 60.


Yes I know there is 59 dot I just mirrored the array of dots from the top to the bottom and I overlapped one red dot. Although the spacing doesn't exactly match on the bottom it help to compensate for the angle of the photo.
I probably should have mirrored it in the X then again on the Y axis but that is probably being bit pedantic.






*I'm not sure the shaft the 10t gear is on the bull shaft....... isnt the bull gear the biggest, the one the conrod connects to? So the bull shaft would be the one its on..... could be wrong though

I follow you the Bull shaft has two sets of teeth, your calculated 15 under the bull gear (I'll go count those if I can to confirm & the bull gear) and the end of the shaft with 10T as seen in photos.

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 01:19 PM
355536

Mine don't look as square as yours but I think in making a replacement square amy be easier to do. Unless I have to layout and drill it by hand.

Stustoys
7th Aug 2015, 01:27 PM
Oh Ok



I follow you the Bull shaft has two sets of teeth, your calculated 15 under the bull gear (I'll go count those if I can to confirm & the bull gear) and the end of the shaft with 10T as seen in photos.
I think you missed my point. Wouldnt the bull gear be on the bull shaft?(but then is a pivot a shaft?)the 10 tooth and 15(?) tooth are one some other shaft...........Oh I dont know lol At the end of the day as long as the ratios are the same you're good to go.

I assume the corners get worn but the ratchet pawl. Either will work as long as the angle is self locking(cant remember the number)

Stuart

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 01:34 PM
You are correct in the 90t bull gear and 15t on the shaft.

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 01:39 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/cb7733f1ee78a4e3e159a9a5ebd9dbe7.jpg
You can see here the 15t on same shaft as the 10t. The shaft parallel is the worm and the one below is fixed which takes the 60t.

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 01:41 PM
Oh Ok


I think you missed my point. Wouldnt the bull gear be on the bull shaft?(but then is a pivot a shaft?)the 10 tooth and 15(?) tooth are one some other shaft...........

Yes I did miss you point. As for correct terminology I have no idea.

I think I'm getting my monies worth out of this machine already just in terms of education.

Stustoys
7th Aug 2015, 02:24 PM
You are correct in the 80t bull gear and 15t on the shaft.
I assume thats a typo

Michael G
7th Aug 2015, 08:47 PM
I've crunched the numbers yet again and am still getting no joy (although where I managed to get 81t from I don't know. 24DP is 77 teeth; 25DP is 81t. It seems to be one of those days/ weeks). The 34mm between the shafts is causing me grief. If that gear is 60t (which the picture says it is) then the 'edge to edge' distance from what I can scale/ calculate should be 24mm.
355558 355557

One of the things I assumed was that the gears were imperial (DP) gears because of the age of the machine. Common cutters are 24DP or 26DP. The closest fit is for DP=25.4 which would be a Module 1 gear. Metric? I think I'll go back to my nice English made grinder. It's dependably imperial...

Michael

DSEL74
7th Aug 2015, 09:03 PM
I was going to try and draft the gears up today, but spent 4Hrs reading websites trying to get my head around it all and gave up I just couldn't follow it.

I don't have a 60T gear but the myford has both a 55 & 65T change gear and placed in front of the lower shaft it looks like a 60T would be about correct of a similar pitch. That is about as scientific I can get my head around at this point.

pipeclay
7th Aug 2015, 09:22 PM
Don't get to concerned if when you do your calcs if the OD of a gear does not match the theoretical diameter it should be for a given tooth count.

When manufacturers made machines if the theoretical centre distances could not be achieved tooth counts and OD's were adjusted to suit.

DSEL74
11th Aug 2015, 08:31 PM
Well This is the model so far. Missing the Slides Gibb strip and all the bolts, the slide handle, screw, and half nut. etc.

The Ram and Clapper/Clapper box are all now to original dimensions. The head and slide are based on the previous but waiting on clarification.

Not sure what tolerance to add to mating surfaces??


Clapper inside box.
Ram dovetail way
Slide Dovetail way
Where the head rotates on the ram (stepped so tolerance on Dia. and face)

DSEL74
11th Aug 2015, 08:33 PM
I don't have any bright mild steel. Would it be suitable to fabricate from black bar stock with the surfaces machined?

KBs PensNmore
11th Aug 2015, 08:44 PM
What sizes do you need, diam X lengths?
Kryn

DSEL74
12th Aug 2015, 05:16 PM
Don't know all of them yet Kryn. Still have to work out the proper details from the slide.


Does this look like a shaper ram??
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/11/fd64d99d0b67ce9af0764f917a2d9f20.jpg
Suspect it might be too hard to machine from me I forged a few hammers out of it and it is killer tough.

jhovel
12th Aug 2015, 07:54 PM
Looks good to me :)
Just remove everything that doesn't look like a shaper ram and you're done.
Show us when the pain is dry tomorrow.... :roll:

KBs PensNmore
13th Aug 2015, 12:41 AM
Looks like a Drive shaft from some machine??? If it can't be machined, maybe one of our friends on here has a cylindrical grinder that could grind it down to size for you.:D
Kryn

DSEL74
13th Aug 2015, 10:29 AM
Looks like a Drive shaft from some machine??? If it can't be machined, maybe one of our friends on here has a cylindrical grinder that could grind it down to size for you.:D
Kryn


It's a sway bar or similar off a kenworth truck. It will need the ends faced, a hole right through the centre approx 440mm long and some holes drilled and tapped in it, probably a flat machined down the length of it so it sits flat. The hardest part will be boring a hole through it.

KBs PensNmore
13th Aug 2015, 04:21 PM
Drilling a hole down the centre shouldn't be a problem, just need a very looooooooong drill bit, about 3 hours drill time and a lathe that will take 100 mm in the bore.:D
Kryn

Stustoys
13th Aug 2015, 04:47 PM
Not exactly sure what your plan is but if you can cut it I should be able to take care of the 440mm hole.
Dia?(of the hole and the stock, will the hole be through the center or offset?)
Though I've never tried drilling a sway bar before. I could be in for a surprise.

Stuart

DSEL74
13th Aug 2015, 04:57 PM
Not exactly sure what your plan is but if you can cut it I should be able to take care of the 440mm hole.
Dia?(of the hole and the stock, will the hole be through the center or offset?)
Though I've never tried drilling a sway bar before. I could be in for a surprise.

Stuart


It will cut with an angle grinder (need facing off). Hole is centred, as I drew it.

You thinking of putting it in a lathe or the big camel back drill?? Or some other toy?

Is your big shaper useable?

Stustoys
13th Aug 2015, 05:25 PM
HSS will cut with an angle grinder ;)

Are you going to bolt/weld/glue the dovetail to this piece of round?(if not then I'm not so sure your hole is in the center, but I guess that doesnt really matter atm)

The lathe.. I think.... I havent really measured things but I'm "pretty sure" it will fit.(but you didnt give me any sizes :P)

I have a shaper? oh yes.. its down the back of the shed somewhere... I havent seen it for awhile hehe. Yes its working. its meant to be 18" so you'll be getting close to its limit(though I dont recall checking how much if any over 18" it goes)

How are you going to attach the ram position slot?

Have you tried scraping steel?

Stuart

DSEL74
13th Aug 2015, 07:23 PM
The Hole is centred to the round. The plan is to bolt the dove tail to the underside of the ram. Then have two filler strips up the side..

The slotted bracket should be let in to the round part of the ram preferably.

The dia of the round bar I have is ~60mm. the original cast ram was 56mm Dia, so I'm calling that close enough. The max Dia of the head is 88.5mm so a collar will be added on or a plate to the front and the round shortened to suit.


So I block terms it should be like the drawing.







*** Edit just looking at that I thin that is n old revision. The Slotted part should be further to the side and not against the centreline. Also the hole might not actually be centred but 5mm up off centre. However if the only way to put the hole in is centred then the other dimensions can be made to take up the difference. All depends on what I can get facility to do and how much I try to make it look like the original. Priority 1 is a working machine.

DSEL74
17th Aug 2015, 01:51 AM
356579356580356581356582356583356584356585356586

Things just got a bit more complicated.

Michael G
17th Aug 2015, 08:03 AM
Nah - of the collection of bits there the trickiest part to make is the 3 ball handle. A gear with an eccentric like that is not difficult - it just requires a 'little bit' of offset in a 4 jaw chuck. I could make you one easily if I had the dimensions (my calculations on the gear and tooth form still have me wondering where the error is:no:).

Michael

DSEL74
17th Aug 2015, 09:58 AM
I appreciate the offer Michael. The ball handle by the way on these is cast, and not as nice as other machines turned ones.

I should be getting some more dimensions from the owner of the MIT in the photos, who has been a great help by supplying photos and dimensions of his a section at a time. Without his help I'd still be guessing at a lot of it.

Stustoys
17th Aug 2015, 12:38 PM
Things just got a bit more complicated.
Then you didnt understand my ummmm "sketch". :wink:(hey I know what I was trying to get across lol)


(my calculations on the gear and tooth form still have me wondering where the error is:no:).

Let me start by say I have almost no idea when it comes to gears. Though I do hate it when my limited maths doesnt work out the way it should, so I've been back through the thread and your notes and think I've found your problem(assuming I'm reading your notes correctly).



I measured the small gear and the Dia of the shaft is 13.5mm, the gear is 10 teeth with a tooth to tooth diagonal measurement of 12mm, and 10mm at the base of the teeth.
The shaft which the ratchet works on is 15.5mm Dia. and edge to edge from the gear is 20.25mm, it is close enough to being on the same centreline.
The fixed stub is 12.75mm and there is 34mm edge to edge below the gear….I forgot to measure the offset or if it is directly below.

There is no way the 10 tooth gear is 12mm in Dia*. Not if the "fixed stub" is 12.75mm
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=197148&p=1886093#post1886093
More in the 25mm range I'd guess

Now I'd like to be able to feed that into your maths and come up with an answer..... but I can't :rolleyes:

Stuart

*which is the figure you're using right?

DSEL74
17th Aug 2015, 02:57 PM
356634Still missing the O/A Dia. but a bit more info.

Michael G
17th Aug 2015, 08:38 PM
There is no way the 10 tooth gear is 12mm in Dia*. Not if the "fixed stub" is 12.75mm
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=197148&p=1886093#post1886093

*which is the figure you're using right?

Yes. But the photo has some optical distortion in it. I went back and scaled off the photo and came up with a maximum gear size of 22mm.

I tried a few different numbers but eventually I threw it all into a spreadsheet to get a most likely number out.
I fixed the size for the stud diameter at 12.75, and put the gears as 60t and 10t. Everything else could float.

The final results were small gear diameter = 16.94mm
'Edge to edge' distance = 34.55mm
Diametric pitch is 18 - that means the 60t gear should have an OD of 87.48mm

So Stuart's super power saves the world again. The nice thing is that now knowing the number of teeth and the DP those numbers can be slightly off as DP & n define the size of the gear.

Michael

Stustoys
17th Aug 2015, 08:57 PM
Thanks for the maths. Glad its working out now.

That sure was a bad picture I picked!

This one works out better
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=356579&d=1439736608
33/12.75=2.588
47/2.588= 18.16 thats closer to your number than 25 :-

Stuart

rdmntfrd
21st Aug 2015, 09:34 PM
I have most of parts of the same shaper under my workbench but haven't yet (in 3 years) begun chasing the same rainbow. Good on you!

If you would like to borrow the ram, or if I can assist with lend of other parts (don't have the table) I'm happy to do so. I live near Adelaide so shipping bits over to Melbourne shouldn't be too hard.

I'll drag it out tomorrow to see whether clapper box is there etc. and I'll read the thread properly to see what else I have that might help.

Regards, Roger

DSEL74
23rd Aug 2015, 04:12 PM
Thanks Roger. Please Post up some photos of yours.

I assume yours is incomplete also, other than the table what are you missing? Mine has the original table. There maybe an opportunity to make extra parts if you require one also.


Started working on the drawings for the ratchet.


I found a small tool post I maybe able to use rather than make it, even though it is one of he easier parts to make

rdmntfrd
23rd Aug 2015, 11:19 PM
Just now when I went back to the shed damn Canon wouldn't fire! Nothing much to look at since partially disassembled to fit under the workbench. I can take some detail photos after work tomorrow though.

If you'd like to borrow the ram, let me know earliest please as I'll have to make a small box to ship it in. The tool slide is still on it and the clapper, but no tool post.

Mine looks like it as been quite kicked around as the ratchet bracket is bent, all shafts seized, and the table gone. I'm not sure about the motor and belts, since I haven't looked at them for a while. Missing guards, but generally appears to be nothing irretrievably damaged.

If you'd like the ram to use it for a modeling session for a month or two, let me know by PM and I'll finally get rid of a pile of E-bay bubble wrap.

Regards, Roger

DSEL74
26th Aug 2015, 06:04 PM
Got a parcel at the post office (postie won't deliver to house due to the puppy), had me curious all day as I wasn't expecting anything. Was wondering if I had made an eBay purchase I'd forgotten about.

Well this is what a nice person sent me as a surprise ...do they wish to be named??
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/25/d7d007c478fcfd41688730b5a1d8f624.jpg

I'll need to adjust the bores to fit but they look promising!! I'm stoked!!

KBs PensNmore
27th Aug 2015, 02:58 AM
Elves do exist, nice work who ever did the job.:2tsup: I hope that something good comes back to you.
Kryn

DSEL74
27th Aug 2015, 09:53 AM
The small one is currently a press fit, so I will try to find and adjustable reamer and just give it a lick. The large one needs to be 12.7 (½" actually) so I need to figure out which is the true ½" the hole or the shaft and which has the tolerance. The I will enlarge the hole to 1/32 undersize and ream it out also. I'm assuming I will have adjustable reamer of the correct size and useable. I found about 5 of them in the hard rubbish once and never used one to date. I believe you set them to size with a micrometer, and only turn them clockwise and continuously to cut, reversing them blunts them badly. Pecking as you do with a drill to clear the flutes risks jamming the reamer. Although these are hand reamers I'm pretty sure.

I have some ver important things I need to be doing last night and today, yet all I can think about is getting these gears on the machine.

Steamwhisperer
27th Aug 2015, 04:09 PM
Hi Dale
Normally and generally speaking the hole is reamed to size and the shaft is slightly undersize.

Phil

DSEL74
27th Aug 2015, 05:09 PM
Not sure if you guys will be able to see this in the photo but the end of the upper portion of the shaft is tapered where the 30T gear will sit. The ratchet bracket goes behind and a small curved spacer in front on the step down. so other than the ball handle screwed on how does this all mechanically fit together?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/26/1c42a46ad455c5b61bcd0c3e41e833e7.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/26/ba9268cce185ff18f585eb72d739d919.jpg

Stustoys
27th Aug 2015, 05:59 PM
The small one is currently a press fit,


Not sure if you guys will be able to see this in the photo but the end of the upper portion of the shaft is tapered where the 30T gear will sit.
Well thats a pity
Does the small gear* slide on past the taper? If so you're up for a new gear* or boring the gear* and making a tapered bush to fit.


. so other than the ball handle screwed on how does this all mechanically fit together?
The ratchet bracket will be a sliding fit on the shaft and I assume the ball handle pushes the "tapered" gear* onto the shaft and holds it there. (there is no key?)

Stuart

Michael G
27th Aug 2015, 06:20 PM
I would suggest that the ratchet gear is taper bored and relies on the 3 ball handle to push it on (bit like a boat prop, although they also have a key) Once you work out the taper though it should not be hard to centre the wheel and using the cross slide bore the taper. Worst comes to worst and you have to bore the ratchet wheel (larger), insert a new piece of material and bore that.

Michael

DSEL74
27th Aug 2015, 08:18 PM
It seems I'm a bit lucky fella, I hadn't the correct size reamer so I hadn't dobe the gear. So it just goes on a few mm. So instead of reaming I need to make it a taper..

Made a start on the cam shaft?? Don't laugh at me it's a Hacksaw and file job. No fancy mill here, not even a working shaper! Lol

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/27/efea33ee54000557b066405e1c950c42.jpg

Michael G
27th Aug 2015, 09:05 PM
Made a start on the cam shaft... it's a Hacksaw and file job. No fancy mill here, not even a working shaper! Lol

Noting wrong with that if you haven't got means. It will get the job done.
The original piece was brass - plain bearings work better when there is a soft- hard combination - and you have steel-steel (so two the same hardness). That can still work but while you are making I would suggest putting a groove inside the hole and then running a grease nipple into it so that you can lubricate the running surfaces well. Otherwise if are not careful one day it could bind up.

Michael

Stustoys
27th Aug 2015, 10:00 PM
Looks damn good to me....... I'd still be thinking about it.

Michael,

Do you think boring the conrod(?) oversize and fitting a ring made of 0.5mm brass be an improvement?

Stuart

Michael G
27th Aug 2015, 10:16 PM
The large one needs to be 12.7 (½" actually) so I need to figure out which is the true ½" the hole or the shaft and which has the tolerance. The I will enlarge the hole to 1/32 undersize and ream it out also. I'm assuming I will have adjustable reamer of the correct size and useable.

It is possible you have some wear on the shaft, so sizing the gear to the 'as new' size may not produce what you expect. I find that if you can ream a hole to 0.001" to 0.002" over the size of your shaft, that is a nice fit (under and it is harder get on, over and clearance can make it wobbly side to side). There does need to be space in there for grease or oil too. Those are the numbers I usually shoot for - others may have better ideas.
Adjustable reamers are a sneaking up thing. 1/32 will be too much to take out in one pass. Numbers I've seen for fixed reamers suggest allowing 5 thou under the final size, so if you figure you can only take out 5 thou at a time, 1/32 could take a while. Chatter can be a problem so use a pilot or a centre in the back of the reamer while the wheel is mounted in the lathe for boring (similar to the way you hold a tap straight) - don't try it under power though. Measuring an adjustable reamer accurately is tricky and I find they will settle slightly once cutting. Start under and measure the hole you produce rather than the reamer. Creep up on the hole (maybe an 1/8 of a turn on the nuts - you'll get the hang of it) until you get the size right. If you haven't got a good way of measuring the hole diameter accurately, use an external mic to measure the shaft and then make up a dummy shaft the same size to use as a gauge. Safer than using using calipers or telescopic gauges if you are not practiced with them. Put a chamfer on your gauge and take off any burrs you might have as if you don't Murphy's law says that you will adjust until the burr clears and then have an oversized hole.

Michael

Michael G
27th Aug 2015, 10:27 PM
Do you think boring the conrod(?) oversize and fitting a ring made of 0.5mm brass be an improvement?

My first preference would be solid brass. A ring 0.5mm thick may work in theory but I would be concerned that at that thickness it could easily get knocked, folded or dislodged. Securing it may be difficult too. The eccentric is around 1 1/4" from memory so if there was room to shrink in a ring with say a 3mm wall that may be better than a thinner section. Steel should work if well lubricated and it may be a good stop gap rather than spending on brass to find that the shape is wrong or there is some other problem. It can always be remade later once the shape is proven.

I think the live steam guys call these things eccentrics or straps(?).

Michael

Steamwhisperer
27th Aug 2015, 10:41 PM
The eccentric is on the shaft and the eccentric strap goes around it.
Yee ha, something I know.

Phil