View Full Version : Furnace Build(likely to be very slow)
Stustoys
22nd Jun 2013, 04:04 PM
With apologies to Matt for not being able to cut the keg he so kindly gave me(over a year ago now) in half just yet.
I've got myself a hot water tank thats about 900mm high and 400mm diameter. Now(I think) its a little on the high side but the diameter should be fine if my dimensions of crucibles are correct.(something else to buy)
So my first question is how thick does the lid need to be and how big a hole for the exhaust? The dome is about 80mm high and its about 80mm from there to the bottom of the outlet fitting. 80mm of straight would give me enough for 4 layers of blanket, but would an air gap above that be an issue?
I have some fire bricks that I might use in the bottom as I may end up playing with oil burners.
The Isowool I have I'm not so sure about, its 14-10SP from Isolite Ceramic Fibers SDN. BHN. I thought it was good for 1600C but now I'm not so sure and cant find out any info. Anyone happen to know anything or of a way to test it?
Mine isowool didnt come in rolls, its a 300mm square block 150mm thick, the blanket is about 20mm thick conertinaed, I'm guessing there is about 2400mm in block and I have 4 blocks.
So many little things to chase up.
Some titanium wire, I figure 20g will do?
I also need sealer? rigidiezer?
Off to reread some threads that have been waiting in my favorites list. Get ready Bob and Ray ;)
Stuart
DSEL74
22nd Jun 2013, 05:44 PM
You should ask Josh & Ray a few questions. I remember Josh saying they spent a heap of money buying the fire bricks or heat matting or something only to find another much-much cheaper way of going about it. Or I could be completely wrong I was quite overwhelmed with all their equipment as it was my first visit.
Ueee
22nd Jun 2013, 07:02 PM
The link Sawdust posted in fxst's thread has some good info. Foundry Tutorial Book (http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?2469-Foundry-Tutorial-Book)
I was going to use the stuff Sawdust did, from this place. Castables, High Temperature Concrete (http://www.firebrick.com.au/high_temperature/high_temperature_concretes)
Keep on the lookout for a burner like mine, looks like it will work a treat. Spraybooths use them, as well as big hot water boilers etc.
Stustoys
22nd Jun 2013, 09:47 PM
Hi,
I believe Josh and Ray used Pyrocrete 165 but said they think blanket would be better.
Hi Ewan,
Yeah working on that link thanks.
I dont recall having seen Sawdusts furnace.
The reason I am using blanket is I am told "for guys like us" as it doesnt have the thermal mass to heat up so is better suited for us "one pour" wonders...........
I dont like my chances of stubbing my foot on a burner like yours but I will keep an eye out.
I'm just going to use bottle gas to start with as I have a 40kg bottle for the shed heater anyway. I'll have a chat to a plumber I know about whats involved in on mains gas.. though its a little early for that lol. would be nice to have a kero burner at least I go tend to use a bit of that.. I'd use more if it could be "reused"
What am I going to be paying for crucibles in oz? The only place I have found online so far in in WA.(why is all the good stuff in WA? hehehe)
Stuart
Ueee
22nd Jun 2013, 10:00 PM
salamander crucible | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=salamander+crucible&LH_PrefLoc=2)
Yeah, those damn WA blokes hogging all the good stuff.......:D
I thought a thinish hard face and then blanket would be better.....
BobL
22nd Jun 2013, 10:35 PM
With apologies to Matt for not being able to cut the keg he so kindly gave me(over a year ago now) in half just yet.
I've got myself a hot water tank thats about 900mm high and 400mm diameter. Now(I think) its a little on the high side but the diameter should be fine if my dimensions of crucibles are correct.(something else to buy)
So my first question is how thick does the lid need to be and how big a hole for the exhaust? The dome is about 80mm high and its about 80mm from there to the bottom of the outlet fitting. 80mm of straight would give me enough for 4 layers of blanket, but would an air gap above that be an issue?
I have some fire bricks that I might use in the bottom as I may end up playing with oil burners.
The Isowool I have I'm not so sure about, its 14-10SP from Isolite Ceramic Fibers SDN. BHN. I thought it was good for 1600C but now I'm not so sure and cant find out any info. Anyone happen to know anything or of a way to test it?
Mine isowool didnt come in rolls, its a 300mm square block 150mm thick, the blanket is about 20mm thick conertinaed, I'm guessing there is about 2400mm in block and I have 4 blocks.
Is it listed on this brochure
http://www.owencorp.com/Isowool.pdf
Ueee
22nd Jun 2013, 11:03 PM
What do you want to melt Stu?
The Isowool only looks to be rated to 1500, a bit low for CI. If your burning oil i think you will want a sacrificial brick to take the brunt of the flame as it hits the side of the furnace. Or so i have read......
Stustoys
23rd Jun 2013, 12:01 AM
Hi Bob,
Thanks but I can't see any numbers that match :(
Not sure I like the "14" in my numbers though.
Hi Ewan,
I'm after CI..........nothing like jumping in at the deep end.
I was planning on putting fire brick at the bottom for that reason.
As above with the "14"
Might have to run a piece up to Ray and Joshs and see what damage they can do to it.
Stuart
simonl
23rd Jun 2013, 01:10 AM
Might have to run a piece up to Ray and Joshs and see what damage they can do to it.
Stuart
:2tsup:
Toggy
23rd Jun 2013, 09:42 AM
Stuart
A few years ago I bought a cruvible and hi temp castables from a place in Geddes? Street, Mulgrave. Their name possibly started with R
IIRC they had blanket and firebrick. How many firebricks do you want. Trouble is the the trip would be worth more than buying new firebrick.
Ken
BobL
23rd Jun 2013, 10:16 AM
The Isowool I have I'm not so sure about, its 14-10SP from Isolite Ceramic Fibers SDN. BHN. I thought it was good for 1600C but now I'm not so sure and cant find out any info. Anyone happen to know anything or of a way to test it?
Mine isowool didnt come in rolls, its a 300mm square block 150mm thick, the blanket is about 20mm thick conertinaed, I'm guessing there is about 2400mm in block and I have 4 blocks.
If it's isolite in block form then it's either Uniblok or Saber Bloc.
See ISOWOOL Uniblok and Saber Bloc - イソライト工##式会社 | ISOLITE INSULATING PRODUCTS CO.,LTD. (http://www.isolite.co.jp/en/products/ceramicfiber/seihin2-3/index.html)
I'd say the 14 refers to 1400 C.
But all the Isolites don't melt until they get to ~1750C
My understanding is a 1400C classification a service temperature, ie will withstand multiple heatings to that temp.
Depending on how much CI you want to cast I would think the 14 should survive a couple of CI castings.
SawDustSniffer
23rd Jun 2013, 12:19 PM
my furnace has 18mm hard hot face , with 50mm of kiowool behind it
Stustoys
23rd Jun 2013, 12:25 PM
Hi Ken,
That would be Refractory & Ceramic.
Refractory & Ceramic - Crucibles, Furnaces and Master Alloys (http://refractoryandceramic.com.au/crucibles-furnaces-and-master-alloys.html)
I'd found them, wasnt sure if they would want to talk to me. Looks like I'd want just about the smallest crucible they sell(they they say they are only good to 1400C.......
I have "some" firebricks(heavy like a solid house brick not the light sandy white ones). I have no idea how many I need as I hadnt planned on using them(other than maybe a couple of rows in the bottom). I'll check
Hi Bob,
Its not a block, its a blanket.... but its folded not rolled. make sense? I think not. I'll take a picture. Takes up less space I guess.
Can you tell me more about the rigidizer you used in your furnace? If I stay with the blanket I assume I'll need to use that also?
Stuart
Stustoys
23rd Jun 2013, 12:30 PM
my furnace has 18mm hard hot face , with 50mm of kiowool behind it
18mm, I wouldnt have thought it could be used so thin(based on nothing at all lol). One of the things that had worried me about the "hi temp cement" route was the weight........ I would like to be able to move the thing. 18mm wouldnt be a show stopper as long as it stays together.
Any pictures on the forum?
Stuart
Brobdingnagian
23rd Jun 2013, 01:28 PM
OoooHHH! I had missed the start of this thread. Bring on the liquid metal Stu.
You were right we used pyrocrete as the outer shell for the pressure tank, We then lined the inside with 2 layers of CeraChem (just like any other thermal ceramic stuff just rated just a little higher). We melted it when we first changed over to a forced air LPG burner (later we figured it was the heat of the furnace but the flame temp that made a hot spot and with a high volume of air washed it out. When we rebuilt it we added some thin high density firebrick (from Refractory & Ceramic) at the contact point for the flame so as to not wash out the cerachem when we crank up the burner to 20m/s air. Another place to pick up crucibles is Foseco in dandenong they stock a reasonable range of silicon carbide and clay graphite crucibles not that you could tell from their website.
Foseco
19-21 Nicole Way
Dandenong
BobL
23rd Jun 2013, 02:30 PM
Hi Bob,
Its not a block, its a blanket.... but its folded not rolled. make sense? I think not. I'll take a picture. Takes up less space I guess.
Can you tell me more about the rigidizer you used in your furnace? If I stay with the blanket I assume I'll need to use that also?
Ah ha, that folded blanket stuff is commonly used here in WA for pizza ovens. I see packs of it for sale occasionally on gumtree by folks who want to sell their excess after making their ovens.
If any of the blanket is exposed it will slowly fray and fibres will get into the exhaust fumes and go all over the place.
My understanding is the rigidizer doesn't completely cure this problem but greatly reduces it.
Are you doing this inside a shed? If so, good ventilation is needed, not just for the remaining fibres but also exhaust gases.
The rigidizer came in 1L containers and I managed to do my small forge with ~300 mL.
I bought 2L and it cost $65 but it should do me for many relinings of the furnace.
Most rigidizers are a suspension of colloidal silica and caustic plus a few other bits and pieces.
I think the higher temp versions also contain zirconia.
Here's a typical MSDS
http://www.morganthermalceramics.com/files/msds/north_america/205.pdf
DSEL74
23rd Jun 2013, 04:52 PM
Trouble is the the trip would be worth more than buying new firebrick.
Stu, where are you located? Mulgrave is about 40min for me and Dandy about an hour. I could maybe go investigate for you if you need.
Toggy
23rd Jun 2013, 08:07 PM
Stuart,
Those heavy firebicks are heat retainers and used as face bricks for fireplace and pizza/bread ovens. They soak the heat then slowly emit it. The lightweights are reflective and used in kilns/furnaces.
I have the lightweights; not sure if they are 1300c or 1700c.
R & F had carbide and graphite crucibles. IIRC the graphite are the higher temp, but more fragile.
There were several old gentlemen and I mean that in every sense. When I explained that I intended to make a furnace they almost fell over themselves to help with any question and made numerous suggestions.
Things were quiet; so maybe I was a fresh new body to talk to.:D
If and when I get on track with the project I will certainly deal with them again.
Ken
Stustoys
23rd Jun 2013, 10:27 PM
Hi DSEL74,
I'm SE Melb so I am likely just a little closer than you, but thanks for the offer.
Hi Ken,
R & F? or R & C..
I was thinking heavy bricks would put up with more "issues" from flames and oil etc?
Might try and get myself down there Saturday morning. Though I have a couple of other things to pick up.
Stuart
RayG
28th Jun 2013, 02:28 PM
Hey Stuart,
Only just found this thread... :) anything we can help with let me know..
I knew you'd find an excuse to wear that helmet... :)
Regards
Ray
Stustoys
29th Jun 2013, 09:33 PM
Hi Ray,
Thanks for that. I thought I was a closer to being ready to start putting things together than I am is seems lol
Though in my defence I am skipping Alum. I've got a gas reg on the way. The plan ATM is to wait until I get a crucible so I know how big things need to be. I'm thinking something that will hold 10kgs of cast iron. To much?
One of the many things I havent got on the go is titiaium wire.
6 yards of 20G long enough and thick enough?
Titanium Color Wire Beadsmith 20 Gauge 6yd 41809 Round | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Titanium-Color-Wire-Beadsmith-20-gauge-6yd-41809-Round-/300916417964?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46100425ac#ht_1679wt_1161)
I knew you'd find an excuse to wear that helmet... :)
There just arent enough fancy dress parties these days ;)
Stuart
Ueee
30th Jun 2013, 12:07 AM
Titanium wire? to tie insulation is place? or am i way off.......
Stustoys
30th Jun 2013, 01:10 AM
Hi Ewan,
to tie insulation is place?
Yes, in the lid. I figure it it works for Ray and Josh It will do for me also.
Stuart
Brobdingnagian
1st Jul 2013, 12:03 PM
Hi Ray,
Thanks for that. I thought I was a closer to being ready to start putting things together than I am is seems lol
Though in my defence I am skipping Alum. I've got a gas reg on the way. The plan ATM is to wait until I get a crucible so I know how big things need to be. I'm thinking something that will hold 10kgs of cast iron. To much?
One of the many things I havent got on the go is titiaium wire.
6 yards of 20G long enough and thick enough?
Titanium Color Wire Beadsmith 20 Gauge 6yd 41809 Round | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Titanium-Color-Wire-Beadsmith-20-gauge-6yd-41809-Round-/300916417964?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46100425ac#ht_1679wt_1161)
There just arent enough fancy dress parties these days ;)
Stuart
On the subject of size, one of the things I wish we could do is to melt a full sized Alum ingot, rather than having to cut it up first.
-Josh
Stustoys
1st Jul 2013, 09:46 PM
Hi Josh,
Just how much does a full sized Alum ingot weigh?
Stuart
Brobdingnagian
1st Jul 2013, 11:04 PM
Hi Josh,
Just how much does a full sized Alum ingot weigh?
Stuart
5.5Kg
DSEL74
1st Jul 2013, 11:33 PM
I don't know if this will assist you in spec'ing your furnace or not.
Metals - Melting Temperatures (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html)
Melting temperature of some common metals and alloys
Melting points of some metals and alloys are indicated in the table below:
Metal
Melting Point
(oC)
(oF)
Admiralty Brass
900 - 940
1650 - 1720
Aluminum
660
1220
Aluminum Alloy
463 - 671
865 - 1240
Aluminum Bronze
600 - 655
1190 - 1215
Antimony
630
1170
Babbitt
249
480
Beryllium
1285
2345
Beryllium Copper
865 - 955
1587 - 1750
Bismuth
271.4
520.5
Brass, Red
1000
1832
Brass, Yellow
930
1710
Cadmium
321
610
Cast Iron, gray
1175 - 1290
2150 - 2360
Chromium
1860
3380
Cobalt
1495
2723
Copper
1084
1983
Cupronickel
1170 - 1240
2140 - 2260
Gold, 24K Pure
1063
1945
Hastelloy C
1320 - 1350
2410 - 2460
Inconel
1390 - 1425
2540 - 2600
Incoloy
1390 - 1425
2540 - 2600
Iridium
2450
4440
Iron, Wrought
1482 - 1593
2700 - 2900
Iron, Gray Cast
1127 - 1204
2060 - 2200
Iron, Ductile
1149
2100
Lead
327.5
621
Magnesium
650
1200
Magnesium Alloy
349 - 649
660 - 1200
Manganese
1244
2271
Manganese bronze
865 - 890
1590 - 1630
Mercury
-38.86
-37.95
Molybdenum
2620
4750
Monel
1300 - 1350
2370 - 2460
Nickel
1453
2647
Niobium (Columbium)
2470
4473
Osmium
3025
5477
Palladium
1555
2831
Phosphorus
44
111
Platinum
1770
3220
Plutonium
640
1180
Potassium
63.3
146
Red Brass
990 - 1025
1810 - 1880
Rhenium
3186
5767
Rhodium
1965
3569
Ruthenium
2482
4500
Selenium
217
423
Silicon
1411
2572
Silver, Coin
879
1615
Silver, Pure
961
1761
Silver, Sterling
893
1640
Sodium
97.83
208
Steel, Carbon
1425 - 1540
2600 - 2800
Steel, Stainless
1510
2750
Tantalum
2980
5400
Thorium
1750
3180
Tin
232
449.4
Titanium
1670
3040
Tungsten
3400
6150
Uranium
1132
2070
Vanadium
1900
3450
Yellow Brass
905 - 932
1660 - 1710
Zinc
419.5
787
Zirconium
1854
3369
T(oC) = 5/9[T(oF) - 32]
What are you guys paying for you ingots, Aluminium, Brass, Nickel??
Brobdingnagian
2nd Jul 2013, 01:43 AM
What are you guys paying for you ingots, Aluminium, Brass, Nickel??
Depends on the alloy.
But as a guide low grade Aluminium $2-3 kg(ingot), Brass/Aluminium Bronze(scrap) $5 kg, Silicon Bronze $15-$20kg(ingot)
Stustoys
2nd Jul 2013, 11:02 PM
5.5kgs, thats big enough for about 17kgs iron
If my maths is right that should be doable.
My Reg turned up today, only just fits on the bottle, misses the guard(?) my a couple of mm's. Got to be lucky sometimes.
1290C sounds much nicer, though I assume it needs to be hotting thatn that to pour?
$2-3 kg! my scrappy charges $6.6 kg for his scrap.
Stuart
Brobdingnagian
2nd Jul 2013, 11:36 PM
5.5kgs, thats big enough for about 17kgs iron
If my maths is right that should be doable.
My Reg turned up today, only just fits on the bottle, misses the guard(?) my a couple of mm's. Got to be lucky sometimes.
1290C sounds much nicer, though I assume it needs to be hotting thatn that to pour?
$2-3 kg! my scrappy charges $6.6 kg for his scrap.
Stuart
Specialty scrap dealer, the sell the RMI ingots I'll remember the name later, I had put a post up about them some time ago.
RayG
2nd Jul 2013, 11:45 PM
Hi Stuart,
CMA Eco Cycle
5-10 Reo Cresent
Campbellfield Vic 3061
Phone 03 9308 9415
They sell ingots of various metals with a guaranteed alloy composition.
Aluminium ingots $3.50 per Kg
Silicon Bronze $8.50 per Kg
Those prices are a few years old now... when you go there, tell the guy out the back what you want it for, and he'll recommend a suitable alloy.
When it comes to selecting aluminium recycling, the rule of thumb, is to choose things that are already cast, that's a fair bet that they will be suitable for melting down and re-casting..
Regards
Ray
Stustoys
3rd Jul 2013, 12:13 AM
Hi Ray and Josh,
At $3.50 per kg I dont think I will be chasing scrap. Not unless it lands on my doorstep.
Stuart
p.s. Thanks for the address
eskimo
4th Jul 2013, 01:15 PM
When it comes to selecting aluminium recycling, the rule of thumb, is to choose things that are already cast, that's a fair bet that they will be suitable for melting down and re-casting..
is extruded stuff any good..I have a couple lengths of alloy extrusion that was used for the chain/guide track on garage roller door.....should I just take it to scarp merchants or is it suitable to melt and cast stuff with?
Stustoys
4th Jul 2013, 09:34 PM
is extruded stuff any good..I have a couple lengths of alloy extrusion that was used for the chain/guide track on garage roller door.....should I just take it to scarp merchants or is it suitable to melt and cast stuff with?
If you only have a little scrap I would say it isn't worth it. With a large supply it might be worth playing with to find out how good it is, but if you are only going to say $10 I'd say scrap it and buy known ingot. Given the time, effort and cost of finding out you have wasted your time, effort and cash. Also as a beginner I like to have as many things going for me as I can.
But then again..........I havent even had a burner fired up as yet.
Stuart
DSEL74
4th Jul 2013, 11:52 PM
I just came across this link in my search for Shrinkage and Machining tolerances..Need to know how much oversize to make a pattern for Phosphor Bronze????
Foundry Manual (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/foundry/index.htm)
Foundry Mamual for the US Navy.
On a side not what is wrong with the forum today??????
Stustoys
5th Jul 2013, 01:44 AM
Thanks for the link.
On a side not what is wrong with the forum today??????
Nothing I am aware of...... am I missing something? lol
Stuart
DSEL74
5th Jul 2013, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the link.
Nothing I am aware of...... am I missing something? lol
Stuart
Was timing out loading, or not loading fully for me. Other websites were fine. Maybe I just got on her wrong side yesterday lol.
DJs Timber
5th Jul 2013, 08:52 AM
Was timing out loading, or not loading fully for me. Other websites were fine. Maybe I just got on her wrong side yesterday lol.
It wasn't just you, a few of us experienced it yesterday.
What computer type and browser were you on?
DSEL74
5th Jul 2013, 08:53 AM
It wasn't just you, a few of us experienced it yesterday.
What computer type and browser were you on?
I'm on a Mac using Safari.
DJs Timber
5th Jul 2013, 08:57 AM
I'm on a Mac using Safari.
Cheers for that, same as everyone else, Mac/iPad/iPhone and Safari is the common theme.
eskimo
5th Jul 2013, 09:34 AM
If you only have a little scrap I would say it isn't worth it. With a large supply it might be worth playing with to find out how good it is, but if you are only going to say $10 I'd say scrap it and buy known ingot. Given the time, effort and cost of finding out you have wasted your time, effort and cash. Also as a beginner I like to have as many things going for me as I can.
But then again..........I havent even had a burner fired up as yet.
Stuart
thanks Stuart
I'll keep all my old cast pulleys and toss the other
Stustoys
15th Jul 2013, 02:14 AM
Well its turns out Foseco isnt open Saturday mornings........ lazy sods ;)
Might try again tomorrow or R and C.
I've had another one of my ideas. Would it be a stupid idea to test cast iron patterns etc with alum pours first?
Stuart
RayG
15th Jul 2013, 03:22 PM
Well its turns out Foseco isnt open Saturday mornings........ lazy sods ;)
Might try again tomorrow or R and C.
I've had another one of my ideas. Would it be a stupid idea to test cast iron patterns etc with alum pours first?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
Aluminium will flow differently to cast iron, so probably not worth the trouble, unless you actually wanted the aluminium parts...
Regards
Ray
Stustoys
15th Jul 2013, 04:18 PM
Hi Ray,
Well fine! there goes yet another cunning plan. The first thing I want to make is a new clamp block for the tailstock on my lathe. Maybe one in Aluminium for practice would be a good idea? but that would mean another crucible. Still that wouldnt be the end of the earth, I'll need one sooner or later anyway.
Just back from R & C, what a helpful bunch of guys*. Went in and had a chat about what I needed and walked out with an A8 crucible and plenty of advice for a whopping $3.84 more than I could have had it delivered for from ebay(and thats if you count GST!, and I dont have to worry about it arriving in more than one piece) :2tsup:
Ebay says its good for 12.5kgs of brass(I thought the guy said more like 15kgs?) either way I'd say thats more than enough to be picking up when white hot.
So thats one more thing ticked off the list.
Now to make some tongs so I can work out the diameter I need the furance to be.
Stuart
*I assume the girl was just as helpful, though she was having lunch so I didnt talk to her lol
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