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Strom
8th Aug 2009, 11:49 PM
8X5 Heavy Duty Trailer
Trailer Specifications
GVM -1990kg
Chassis - 50x50x3mm RHS
Draw Bar -100x50x3mm RHS
Trailer Tub - 2.1mm checkerplate
Springs - 7 leaf slipper type
Axles - 40mm square solid 1 peice machined
Brakes - Hydraulic over ride
Wheels - 4 brand new white mags
Tyres - 4 brand new 185x14 light truck tyres
Lights - LED
Jockey Wheel - 8x2 Heavy duty Alko swing up type.



The trailer specs above are readily available for Between $3000.00 and $35000.00 for a fairdinkum Heavy duty trailer (Not Rubbish)


Now if you want the exact same trailer in a tipper You Double that price starting price $7000.00


Can some of you more experienced trailer builders please explain the huge difference in price for me.. ??
The way I see it a 3 Ton tipping kit for a trailer is
around $1200.00
Where is the rest of the money ??.. :((:((

specialist
9th Aug 2009, 01:48 AM
I just finished a 4.5 ton tipping trailer and it came to just under 20 000 dollars, it was 13' x 6' with drop sides, breakaway setup and self contained hydralic pack/ multi stage ram. That price was wired and painted drive away

The money is in the details, extra chassis, reinforced floor for the ram , reinforced main chassis for the for the hydralic pack and ram base mount. this all takes time and extra material.

Hope this helps

Robert

Yonnee
9th Aug 2009, 10:01 AM
Firstly, I wouldn't call that a "Heavy Duty" trailer by any stretch of the imagination. 40mm axles with Holden bearings and Slipper Springs only gives you 1666.6666Kg capacity, and Composite bearings will just barely give you 2000Kg axle capacity.

Secondly, when you're making a Tipper trailer, you're essentially making two chassis. And as Robert said above, the hydraulic ram mounting requires a fair bit of extra bracing and re-inforcing. The problem here lies in how you have to mount the hydraulic cylinder to the trailer. Ideally, vertically woud provide the least stress on the rest of the trailer as you are directly acting on the load. However, ground clearance would then be your biggest issue. So you have to mount the cylinder almost horizontally, and the stresses this creates will try and tear the trailer apart, especially if it's trying to lift 1500Kg when the trailer is fully loaded.

You can reduce this stress somewhat by having the lower chassis stop at the back of the rear springs, having this as your pivot point with the rest of the tub's chassis overhanging this. Then, even fully loaded, the load behind the pivot point will reduce the effort required by the hydraulic ram, and thus, the stresses on the trailer.

What's this tipping kit for $1200.00? At best I can see you getting a cylinder barely big enough to do the job, and a cheap Chinese pump, maybe some hoses. You then still have to power the pump, and build a tank for the hydraulic fluid. And the time in setting all this up, at say $80p/h, would quickly add up. Then a better quality pump, a bigger capacity ram, etc., etc.

Strom
9th Aug 2009, 09:52 PM
Hi Yonnie..
I realise you basically have two subframes for a tipping trailer and sum more reinforcing..
But $1500.00 buys you the Genka tipping kit (Australian made not china rubbish)
But $7000.00 to dump some rubbish and collect the occasional firewood is out of budget..
For $7000.00 you can buy a second hand tip truck !!..
Is there a manufacturer you know of preferably in S.A that makes a decent tipper at an affordable price ?..
Or any tips on how one can be set up economically yes I can weld to a satisfactory standard..

Any help tips are greatly appreciated..

Yonnee
9th Aug 2009, 11:56 PM
Hey Strom.
I've just had a look at that Genka Ezilift (http://www.genka-ezilift.com/index.html) system, and it doesn't look to bad.

Two things to consider for me. One, its height. I'd want to fit 4" drop axles to get the centre of gravity down a little.
And Two, his own limitation of 1500Kg load. I know most people would never think they'd get close to that, but in reality, an 8 x 5 trailer with 12" (300mm) sides, filled level is a tad over 1.1 cu/M, and One cu/M of dry sand or crushed rock, each weigh approx. 1600Kg, and wet sand is closer to the 2 tonne mark. Firewood's not so bad at somewhere between 400Kg and 800Kg per cu/M.

So, if this Genka kit looks like it could be for you, then why not give it a go building your own. Get a copy of the Vehicle Standards Bulletin #1, and ask lots of questions till you're confident enough to start. I've helped many around the country, both personally and by corespondance, so feel free to pick my brain either publicly on the thread, or privately via P.M. or email.

soundman
10th Aug 2009, 12:01 AM
i'd be buying the used tip truck.

consider this.....a normal box trailer configuration, the trailer body acts as a truss mainly supported in the middle by the wheels via the spring shackles.........thus the load on a tandem trailer is supported on 6 or 8 points widely spread along the chasis.

now your tipper when tipped is supported on 3 points....the hinges and the ram.....so both the trailer tub and the underchasis have to be considerbly stronger than the original trailer.

Also don't forget you have to consider the load shifting when the trailer tips may at least double stresses on some parts of the trailer...........twice the price....yep I recon that would be a fair cop.

cheers

Yonnee
10th Aug 2009, 02:00 AM
i'd be buying the used tip truck.


Hmmm... rego and insurance on another vehicle, compared to rego on a trailer...


A no brainer for most.

soundman
10th Aug 2009, 11:37 AM
I have several friends who do own cheap utes or trucks as a reasonable alternative to owning a heavy trailer.


If you have a nice new $80 000 4WD.......a few grand on an cheap used tipper is reasonable compared to dragging the guts out of your pride and joy towing a 2 tonne trailer.

I don't know about SA.... but trailer rego up here in QLD has just doubled and if the truck is a 4 cylinder diesel it does not look all that bad.

cheers

Yonnee
10th Aug 2009, 07:48 PM
$57.00 per year in South Australia for a trailer... compared to $356.00 plus all insurances, etc. for a commercial vehicle under 4500Kg tare.

Still a no brainer for most...

Strom
10th Aug 2009, 09:37 PM
I Agree with Yonnee..
Rego costs on a truck let alone Maintenance and insurance
Make the trailer a no brainer !!! :doh:

While we are at it what sort of weight can you legally tow behind HZJ75 Cruizer ??..

Is converting the tray of a tip truck a (It already has the sub frame attached and hinged) a viable alternative if you can pick one up cheap
I know they are a little heavy but am happy to run electric breaks..
What are the pros and cons hear ??..

Cheers for all your thoughts members..

soundman
11th Aug 2009, 10:37 AM
certainly everyone to their own...

the question is...what do you want to carry and how much of it do you want to carry.

look at the weight of an ex-truck tipper body and chasis......I'd just be pulling a figure out of the air.....but it is very easy to start chewing into your payload big time.
I've just scrapped a trailer that weiged empty, nearly half its GVM.....

are you better off looking at a smaller trailer....... and doing more trips........around here there are a few companies offering airbag operated exhaust powered tippers around the tonne.......the tree lopper I use has one on a 1 tonne ute (he delivers firewood with it) and it seems to work fine for him.......they are also available on trailers.........It reduces the cost and weight involved with hydraulics......quite a few of the mowing contractors around here had 1 tonne (ish) cage trailers with boat winch operated tippers on them....... but they seem to have gone out of favor............It occurs to me that all the above are viable in smaller size trailers but once the size and weight gets along, they don't seem to be viable.

or could you be reeeeealy nasty and use a stock box trailer and hoik it up by the drawbar......if you are tipping at a fixed location a ganrty and a winch.....heaps of farmers tip trailers using the 3 point linkage off their tractor or a ball on the bucket of their bobcat or backhoe
this is pretty hard on trailers though.



cheers

Strom
11th Aug 2009, 07:29 PM
Hi..
I have looked into the Exhaust Jack ones.. ( I want a two ton payload)
I have a 4 ton exhaust jack myself great for getting the cruiser out of the sand
But I don't think it's suitable for more frequent use and I could not see it
tipping the tray up high enough to empty unless it was past half way down the trailer putting alot of load on everything..
I already have a manual hydraulic pump & cylinder (Rated to 4 Ton)
Am looking at how to best set it up into something existing (keeping costs down)
How much weight can be towed behind the HZJ75 Cruiser using electric brakes on the trailer ?..
How much is the average cost of the recommended electric break away system and average installation cost ?..

Cheers..

soundman
11th Aug 2009, 07:54 PM
according to carbudy, 750kg unbraked ( of course) and 3.5 tonne braked........this should also be in your owners manual.

my sources indicate cost of a breakaway kit around the $150 give or take how well you can buy.......not much in a project of that scale.

installation cost .... ask the bloke installing it.

cheers

Strom
11th Aug 2009, 08:29 PM
Sounds Good...
Sorry No manual for cruiser !!! :B
So with an electric breakaway system from what I unerstand also needs to be fitted to the interior of the cruiser ??.. (Making the cruiser the only vehicle that can tow this trailer very handy when so called friends need to borrow the trailer.) :no:

And the electric breakaway system is sufficiant and legal up to the 3.5 ton that the cruiser can tow ?..

WicketKeeper
11th Aug 2009, 09:35 PM
Hey Strom,
Electric Brakes on a trailer require a controller in the tow vehicle to allow them to work, whether the trailer requires breakaway or not. Once the trailer reaches 2000Kg GVM, then the trailer must be fitted with Breakaway.
Yes, having people that want to borrow the trailer without a controller in their vehicle has its advantages... but then you might get asked to borrow the tow vehicle as well!! LOL.

Once a trailer has Breakaway fitted, then it's legal up to 4500Kg, OR whatever the weakest link is on the trailer (coupling, axles, tyres, rated capacity, etc.) or the maximum the tow vehicle can tow, which ever is the least.


WK

Strom
11th Aug 2009, 10:21 PM
Hey Wicky..
Tha'ts easy fixed..
They got bucklys of borrowing the tow vehicle.. =)
So let me get this right all electric brakes have breakaway ?..
Or is there two differant types of electric brakes ??..

Cheers..

DJ’s Timber
11th Aug 2009, 10:56 PM
So let me get this right all electric brakes have breakaway ?..



Not exactly, all Trailers from 750kg to 2000KG can have any type of braking system.

But once you go over the 2000KG mark all trailers must be fitted with a system that can maintain a braking pressure for 15mins or more if the trailer was to detach itself from the towing vehicle.

And to add more confusion to the matter, your combined towing vehicle and loaded trailer must not exceed 4500KG if you hold a Car license.

So going on that basic, if you hold a normal car license and depending on what Cruiser body you have, you're limited to towing a loaded trailer of 2000kg to 2500kg as most cruisers weight between 2000kg and 2500kg unladen.

It'd pay to check with your local Vehicle Authority before you go too far down the path as I'm mainly going on regulations for the State of Victoria.

Strom
11th Aug 2009, 11:21 PM
Ohh..
This is a first...
Thanks Woody...This is news to me..
Yonnee can you throw any light on this issue ?..
After a quick search the Cruiser HZJ75 specs are -
T-2160
A-3035
G- 5535
How heavy of a trailer can I be towing with a class C licence
In South Oz ??

DJ’s Timber
12th Aug 2009, 12:03 AM
Did a search for SA Regs and found this (http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/personal_transport/light_vehicles_pdfs/lightvehicle_towing.pdf) which was accessible from here (http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/personal_transport/light_vehicles/trailers.asp)

So according to your class C license, your combined vehicle and trailer must not exceed 4.5t but if you were to hold a LR license you could have a a combined vehicle and trailer of 5535kg going on your specs for the cruiser.

License specs for SA can be found here (http://www.sa.gov.au/upload/franchise/Transport,%20travel%20and%20motoring/Drivers%20and%20licences/licence_classes.jpg)

As I said before, the best way to check this is with your local Vehicle Authority Board which is http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/index.asp

tlbsg
12th Aug 2009, 09:45 AM
strom electric brakes up to 2000kg have a controller mounted in vehicle over 2000kg you have the same controller in vehicle and you also need a breakaway unit mounted on trailer to hold brakes onif it becomes departed with tow vehicle

soundman
12th Aug 2009, 01:29 PM
yeh the electric brake controller and the break away system are completly seperate but related issues.

unless you are taking the dodgy way out all electric brake systems have a brake controller in the vehicle.....apart from a few exceptions most of the brake controllers are compatable with most of the brakes on the trailer.

then there is the break away system...which is simply a means of applying the brakes hard if the trailer should become seperated,

this limitation of the car licence is an interesting wrinkle......I wonder how many people are aware of this one.....I'll have to check the QLD regs.

cheers

WicketKeeper
14th Aug 2009, 03:08 PM
Ohh..
This is a first...
Thanks Woody...This is news to me..
Yonnee can you throw any light on this issue ?..
After a quick search the Cruiser HZJ75 specs are -
T-2160
A-3035
G- 5535
How heavy of a trailer can I be towing with a class C licence
In South Oz ??

Still haven't seen Yonnee yet...??


I'm having trouble working out the abbreviations...
'T' - I get, and would expect the Tare to be 2160Kg.

'A' - I haven't figured out yet, but would've thought that 3035Kg would be close to your GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass).

'G' - I would've thought to be GVM, but at over 5 and a half tonne, this is way beyond your standard car license limit of 4500Kg.


And the links that DJ put up, are a little vague, and could be read two ways;
Either you can only drive something that weighs 4500Kg TOTAL, on your standard car license...
Or, (and the way I read it), you can drive any vehicle with a GVM less than 4500Kg, and in addition to that, tow a trailer to the maximum of either the vehicle's maximum tow rating, or 1.5 times the Tare if no towing rating stated by the manufacturer, or the trailers rated limit, whichever is the least.

The reason I read it this way is because the reg's talk about GVM, and not GCM (Gross Combined Mass) that the total of the tow vehicle and trailer would be measured.

SurfinNev
15th Aug 2009, 12:15 AM
GVM applies to the vehicle only as i understand it. If not then I would imagine there are a lot of illegal setups out there, amongst caravanners, who have cruisers and huge caravans.

Nev

soundman
24th Aug 2009, 12:16 PM
certainly as I can find out in QLD, the GVM licence restriction applies to the towing vehicle only.... but from mumbles on tis board it may apply to the whole combination in southern states.

cheers