Melbourne Foundry Suppliers

[RayG]

One of the problems trying to get a toehold on metal casting is the difficulty in finding out who has what products. (more to the point what do I need!)

Here is an incomplete list, I am just listing those places that I have actually been to and bought stuff, there are many other suppliers, if you know of any, here is your chance to post some info.

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Metal

CMA Eco Cycle
5-10 Reo Cresent
Campbellfield Vic 3061
Phone 03 9308 9415

They sell ingots of various metals with a guaranteed alloy composition.
Aluminium ingots $3.50 per Kg
Silicon Bronze $8.50 per Kg

For obvious reasons pick up is probably desirable. I bought some scrap bronze from our local scrap dealer and that was $5 per Kg for unknown scrap alloy, for only a slight increase, you know what alloy you are dealing with..

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CMS (Cast Metal Services)
20 Marni Street
Dandenong South 3175
Telephone 03 9706 6440

Petrobond in 25 Kg pails $4.45 per Kg
Bentonite in 25 Kg bags (Foundry Grade) $0.75 per Kg
Parting Powder in 25 Kg bags (pretty cheap) but talcum powder works well also.
Ceramic Filters 10 ppi (pores per inch) $15 each (used to filter crud while pouring)


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Pinches Alloys
21 Malua Street
Reservoir 3073
03 9460 2466

ITC-100 High Temperature reflective coating $80 per pint
ITC-200 High Temperature ceramic repair $80 per pint

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Foseco
19-21 Nicole Way
Dandenong 3175
03 9792 4033

Pyrocrete (various grades and temperature ratings) the 1650 Deg C was $60 per 25 Kg bag

Nitral C19 Aluminium degassing tablets, degasses Aluminium prior to casting $18 per Kg (comes as a pack of big round tablets, that can be broken into smaller bits for smaller crucibles.

A4 clay graphite crucible $35.75, they also have Silicon Carbide crucibles which are more robust but lower temp. (ok for non-ferrous, just not cast iron)

They also carry fluxes, of various types and heaps of other foundry stuff that I dont have a clue as to what it does... I did notice some preformed tapered pouring sprues which I think are used with the ceramic fiters. Some of the fluxes, are for topping off after a pour, and some I think are use to top off the crucible before pouring (must find out!)

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Thermal Ceramics
Factory 3-4 111-113 William Angliss Drive
Laverton North 3026
03 9360 0355

These guys sell ceramic fibre blanket material, like Kaowool etc. Each product has a specific temperature rating, the stuff I got was CeraChem 1425, which comes as a roll in a box 7.6 meters x 610mm 25mm thick and is rated to 1425 degC, they also sell a range of other high temperature ceramic products. The roll of CeraChem 1425 was $160 plus GST

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Some of these companies have web sites, but none that I have seen provide on-line ordering, and when we are talking 25 kg bags of stuff, the best idea, seems to me, is go and pick up directly. I would make sure to ring beforehand to make sure that what you want is in stock and what the price is.

Regards
Ray

[19brendan81]

Nice work Ray. We have a foseco here in Canberra, I was going to post asking where to get degassing tablets but now i know!

My petrobond arrives on Monday. Very excited.

[garym]

Just wondering if anyone knows of, or could create, a similar list for Sydney, in particular anywhere that supplies hobbyist quantities of bentonite for making green sand.

BTW CMS seems to no longer exist - the address and phone number now belongs to
Arnott & Guy Foundry Supplies

and they don't seem to have a Sydney outlet.

Cheers,

Gary

[Bryan]

I've been quoted outrageous prices for bentonite from garden shops, but bought it cheaply from a fodder supplier. Don't know if it's the right grade...

[garym]

I've been quoted outrageous prices for bentonite from garden shops, but bought it cheaply from a fodder supplier. Don't know if it's the right grade...

Thanks for the prompt reply Bryan, but, at the risk of sounding completely dumb, what exactly is a "fodder supplier"?

Edit: Oh dear scratch that - of course - animal fodder - unfortunately we don't see too many of those in the inner-city suburbs of Sydney (there aren't many foundries any more either )

[Bryan]

Thanks for the prompt reply Bryan, but, at the risk of sounding completely dumb, what exactly is a "fodder supplier"?

It's where you buy animal feed and other farm supplies. They may be thin on the ground in metro Sydney. :doh:

[garym]

Ha ha yes, as you can see above I eventually googled it, but I should have known it - I used to watch "Greenacres" after all... :wink:

[Bryan]

How about:

Fodder King‎
1/554 Marrickville Rd
Dulwich Hill NSW 2203
(02) 9569 7400
fodderking.com.au‎

[garym]

Oh, and the garden shops don't (as far as I have been able to ascertain) sell bentonite either (I had heard that one from elsewhere) - strange - but I suppose it is generally used for water retention which would be unusual around here - I did find some perlite for building a foundry though and considered myself fortunate.

[garym]

How about:

Fodder King‎
1/554 Marrickville Rd
Dulwich Hill NSW 2203
(02) 9569 7400
fodderking.com.au‎

Well that's just down the road from me I go past there all the time - if they sell it I'll stand on my head and spin like a top - not a pretty sight - but worth a look (Fodder King not me on my head). It maybe they are just the head office and don't retail, but I will very definitely check.

But see? that is the LAST place I would have thought to look. Thanks again.

Gary

[Graziano]

Isn't some of the kitty litters made from granulated bentonite clay?.

Edit: Some of the other kitty litters are silica gel which can be made into waterglass for casting.

[garym]

Isn't some of the kitty litters made from granulated bentonite clay?.

Edit: Some of the other kitty litters are silica gel which can be made into waterglass for casting.

They are mostly attapulgite clay here, but I did eventually find one that says it is bentonite - but because it is in "clumps" I still need a ball mill or similar to get it into the right powdery format I believe.

Edit: "clumps"?? please no jokes about not using second hand kitty litter (what was I thinking?)

[Graziano]

because it is in "clumps" I still need a ball mill or similar to get it into the right powdery format I believe.

Flog the missus' blender and disappear it into the shed for good.:2tsup:

[tea lady]

Just wondering if anyone knows of, or could create, a similar list for Sydney, in particular anywhere that supplies hobbyist quantities of bentonite for making green sand.
You can get bentonite from ceramic or pottery suppliers in small quantities.

Walker Ceramics (http://www.walkerceramics.com.au/default.htm)

Potters Equipment: citysearch (http://melbourne.citysearch.com.au/E/V/MELBO/0058/14/50/)

Clayworks Australia (http://www.clayworksaustralia.com/)

Northcote Pottery | Choose your site (http://www.northcotepottery.com.au/)

Dunno about Sydney places. :shrug: Google is your freind. :cool:

[garym]

Flog the missus' blender and disappear it into the shed for good.:2tsup:

I would but the dog absolutely loathes company in the evenings.

OTOH the idea of turning an $8 bag of kitty litter into a $5.00 bag of bentonite by ruining a $120.00 blender, DOES seem attractive...

[Graziano]

I would but the dog absolutely loathes company in the evenings.

OTOH the idea of turning an $8 bag of kitty litter into a $5.00 bag of bentonite by ruining a $120.00 blender, DOES seem attractive...

Hmm... the economics would seem a bit dodgy put that way. I must be channelling the Gingery Brothers where you can't do anything the easy way

[Jekyll and Hyde]

i would but the dog absolutely loathes company in the evenings.

Otoh the idea of turning an $8 bag of kitty litter into a $5.00 bag of bentonite by ruining a $120.00 blender, does seem attractive...

lmao. Do yourself a favour, don't think about the cost until you're halfway through doing it :D

[Woodlee]

Bentonite is "drillers clay" used to make seal between the bore hole and the bore casing ,thats one of its common uses .
If you know any drillers they may be able to tell you where to get it.

Kev.

[Master Splinter]

There's always a 'Health Food (http://www.biodistributors.com.au/PriceListFiles/health.php#clay)' shop that'll sell you bentonite clay (it's a natural detox mineral, doncha' know) - only $20 for 500 grams. At that price, the cat sure does have a spoiled bum!

[RayG]

Hi Gary,

I wouldn't bother with kitty litter or animal feed supplements, it's not suitable for making green sand unless you grind it, and even then i'm not sure it will be any good.

I bought some stockfeed bentonite, and ended up giving it to the rellies to use for kitty litter, it's much cheaper than the supermarket kitty litter..:)

If you only plan on doing a few castings every so often then I would recommend you get some petrobond, it's expensive, but worth every penny in terms of quality of casting and it's mostly re-usable.

To make your own green sand, efficiently really needs a muller, so the two paths to get started in casting are as follows...

1. Buy some petrobond and start casting..

or

2. Get FOUNDRY grade bentonite, some good sand, build a muller, learn how to make good quality green sand.... and so on.....

Of course, if you are going to be casting a lot, like a production foundry, then the economics of green sand will win hands down.

Regards
Ray

[Graziano]

Of course, if you are going to be casting a lot, like a production foundry, then the economics of green sand will win hands down.

Regards
Ray

What are the economics of green sand?, I was under the impression that resin bonded sand worked out better and thats why foundries use it in preference to green sand?. Sure with resin it's easier to throw away the used sand than reuse but because there's no requirement for frames like green sand, so it's easier to make many as many moulds as you have the sand for. The moulds are mechanically strong and handle easy as they don't break with a knock.

I've had this discussion with the professional foundry guy I learn from, he said he wouldn't go back to green sand if you paid him.

[RayG]

What are the economics of green sand?, I was under the impression that resin bonded sand worked out better and thats why foundries use it in preference to green sand?. Sure with resin it's easier to throw away the used sand than reuse but because there's no requirement for frames like green sand, so it's easier to make many as many moulds as you have the sand for. The moulds are mechanically strong and handle easy as they don't break with a knock.

I've had this discussion with the professional foundry guy I learn from, he said he wouldn't go back to green sand if you paid him.

5 bucks per kilo for petrobond, versus 75 cents per kilo.

Edit: That's not really the whole story, resin bonded sand is yet another step up in equipment requirements, not even sure it's really appropriate for a home foundry unless (as I keep saying) you are planning to do a lot of casting. As far as green sand goes, I don't think it's in the same league as the later technologies, I can understand why your foundry guy wouldn't want to go back. But we are talking about small backyard foundries, not commercial operations, and green sand is cheap and produces acceptable results IF you mull it properly and get the moisture content right.

My point is quite simple, for a small backyard foundry, forget green sand and buy a bucket of petrobond.

Regards
Ray

[19brendan81]

I agree with Ray, just get Petrobond. I bought a bucket of it a year or so ago and at the rate im using it hobby casting i'll still have it 5 years from now. Its awesome stuff.

[Graziano]

One thing that counts against using the urethane three component resins is that the cross linker additive ages rapidly so you don't get much shelf life. The only reason I use it in preference to other methods is I can get it as I need it in small quantities without buying 50 odd litres of the stuff. That said it's great to stuff to use.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Slightly off topic for a moment, but since you guys seem to have played with metal casting a bit - how much of a smell is created when you're melting down a bunch of aluminium or cast iron (if anyone has something hot enough for iron)? I wouldn't mind having a play sometime, but I have a suspicion that molten aluminium might create enough stink for the neighbours to object....

[RayG]

Slightly off topic for a moment, but since you guys seem to have played with metal casting a bit - how much of a smell is created when you're melting down a bunch of aluminium or cast iron (if anyone has something hot enough for iron)? I wouldn't mind having a play sometime, but I have a suspicion that molten aluminium might create enough stink for the neighbours to object....

Hi Jekyll and Hyde,

No problems with smells from casting. Never really noticed any objectionable smell from molten Aluminium. We get on pretty well with the neighbors anyway. They are more likely to come and see what's going on than complain.

Regards
Ray

[19brendan81]

The only offensive smell youll get is if your using one of those waste oil burners that are described around the place. They reek badly, and could easily offend you neighbors/street.

Brendan

[Graziano]

The rocket engine roar of a gas burner is likely to attract attention, especially if you manipulate the gas valve to get the furnace to light with a spectacular boom. Resin bonded sand does stink as the liquid metal chars it and there's white smoke as well. I don't know about the other casting methods but I'd imagine there's smoke at least.

[Jekyll and Hyde]

The rocket engine roar of a gas burner is likely to attract attention, especially if you manipulate the gas valve to get the furnace to light with a spectacular boom. Resin bonded sand does stink as the liquid metal chars it and there's white smoke as well. I don't know about the other casting methods but I'd imagine there's smoke at least.

I think I'd get away with the noise of the burner, I've indoctrinated them all pretty well on the usual noises (grinders, hammers, compressor etc), but smoke could be a problem... How much smoke are we talking, and is it a prolonged sort of thing, or only for a few seconds?

[Graziano]

I think I'd get away with the noise of the burner, I've indoctrinated them all pretty well on the usual noises (grinders, hammers, compressor etc), but smoke could be a problem... How much smoke are we talking, and is it a prolonged sort of thing, or only for a few seconds?

It's about the smoke level of a backyard leaf fire and rather acrid stink for about 30 seconds minimum, you want good ventilation. I have no idea about green sand or petrobond but I'd imagine the smoke level is bad.

[eskimo]

heres a site I stumbled across...dont know whats in it but noted links to Nikel Plating Kits etc etc

[Stustoys]

What site would that be eskimo?

[eskimo]

What site would that be eskimo?

hahaha

Now I have to see if I can find it again...hahahahahahahaha

I have no idea...hahaha....it looked good tho......

[garym]

If you only plan on doing a few castings every so often then I would recommend you get some petrobond, it's expensive, but worth every penny in terms of quality of casting and it's mostly re-usable.
Ray

Hmmm, it seems I lost track of this thread. I realise it is a bit old now but I am still in the same position as when I originally posted. petrobond would be great but...

where on earth can you get it?

[RayG]

Hi Gary,

CMS (Cast Metal Services) Since the original post they have Changed their name to Arnott and Guy Foundry Supplies, still at the same address... same phone number
20 Marni Street
Dandenong South 3175
Telephone 03 9706 6440

Petrobond in 25 Kg pails $4.45 per Kg

Try giving them a call and see who the distributor is in Sydney.

Regards
Ray

[garym]

Cheers Ray, will do, although I suspect unless there is a local distributer shipping will be a killer.

[4-6-4]

Greetings Chaps Ah the joys of playing with hot metal. I agree with Ray that Petrobond is the way to go. The chemically bonded sands have to be mixed properly to be effective. I used a chemical sand for some work and this was set off by using CO2 gas. This method is OK if you have a muller. I doubt if you could use green sand effectively without one. For those who don't know about a muller it is basically two large heavy rollers in an open tub. They revolve but do not touch the bottom of the tub. They squeeze the sand and break up the lumps from the dried sand. when this is done a sprinkling of bentonite is added. this is allowed to mix. The theroy is that each grain of sand is coated. after a few minutes water is added. No more than three percent. If it is too wet steam will cause an eruption. To test moisture get a small amount of sand in your hand and squeeze. Open hand and the amount of sand sticking will indicate if it is too wet. trial and error. Noise I ran a Kao Wool furnace in a back yard in Richmond. This is inner city. The draft was supplied by a Sadie Vac no complaints from the bodies around. Aluminum gives off little or no smell. The preparation of the green sand eventually drove me to a full working Non Ferocious Foundry. I used to take three drums about 35 gallons into the RMIT Foundry school and mull them there. I spent 13 years as a student at RMIT and worked there as a patternmaker and moulder.
Lastly It is fun to play in the sand pit we are all children at heart.
Best of British if you need help don't be afraid to ask 4-6-4

[gjnau]

I have done a little casting in a previous life with home made green sand. I was given some Bentonite samples for free. I used clean beach sand and mixed it all up by hand. Reusing it was not too bad. Mix in the sand from the casting and then add a little water until it works. I never had any smoke with plain green sand. A little steam once when the sand was too wet.

I had lots of smoke when I did lost foam casting.

I have never played with Petrobond or resin so I cannot comment on how that will work or the amount of smoke generated.

One time I did have a lot of smoke when I poured molten aluminium on the wooden flask.

[garym]

It is such a fascinating and useful hobby. It is just so infuriating that it is so hard to find (at an affordable price) the basic supplies required, e.g.

1. green sand
2. bentonite (to make own green sand)
3. Petrobond
4. fireclay or other refractory (with which to make a gas furnace)
5.Sodium Silicate
6. CO2

I have thus far been able to build a rudimentary electric furnace using old heater elements and Hebel blocks from Bunnings. Using a thermocouple attached to my multimeter I can bring it up to 800C fairly easily. I have had a modicum of success with some basic lost foam castings using playground sand. Alas, unless I can find a source for some or all of the above items that appears to be as far as I can go.

[RayG]

Hi Gary,

Couldn't agree more, the difficulty in finding suppliers for this stuff, was the main reason for starting this thread, all the suppliers I found are listed in the very first post, but that's for Melbourne, not Sydney.

Just curious, why do you want sand and bentonite? If you have petrobond, you don't need to make green sand. As 4-6-4 mentioned, to get into using green sand you probably want to think about getting a muller..

Did you contact CMS ( Arnott and Guy ) yet?

Regards
Ray

[garym]

not Sydney.


Yes of course, I always assume if I can't get it in Sydney that you can't get it anywhere in Oz but that is obviously not always the case, in fact I'm beginiing to think it's the reverse.


Just curious, why do you want sand and bentonite? If you have petrobond, you don't need to make green sand.


Well just as an alternative if I can't obtain Petrobond, even then, I would expect it to be a more economical proposition.


As 4-6-4 mentioned, to get into using green sand you probably want to think about getting a muller..


Well I think they are generally too expensive to buy, but it may be feasible to build one.


Did you contact CMS ( Arnott and Guy ) yet?

Well I rang them but all I get is the answering machine with a message that doesn't even identify them (as Arnott and Guy) - are you sure they are still in business?

BTW I received a list of suppliers from Col Croucher of MyHomeFoundry.com - alas when I contact them I either get no reply, little help, or the quantities involved are just not viable. It's rather disheartening really.

Edit: I should probably take the CO2 off the list because I have found it available through home brewing suppliers, presuming that is satisfactory.

[RayG]

Hi Gary,

Try Cast Metal Services Pty Ltd Refractories - Northgate, QLD

275 Toombul Rd, Northgate QLD 4013, Australia
(07) 3266 6266




Instead of Hebel bricks have you considered using the isolite bricks... much lower thermal conductivity. I used them in the heat treatment furnace.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/heat-treatment-furnace-construction-137007/


Building a muller would be a good project.

Regards
Ray

[epineh]

I was just wondering if anybody has any idea on where I can get Bentone 34 (not Bentonite) I wish to make the K-bond oil sand mixture as per :

K-Bond - Oil Bonded Casting Sand (http://www.foundry.ray-vin.com/k-bond/k-bond.htm)

I have all the other ingredients, but cannot find the Bentone 34. I have a friend that used it in the past (10yrs ago) and only recently had a look at his work and the results leave my greensand for dead, you can see the detail achievable on the link I posted.

On that Web page he specifically states not to use Bentonite, a real shame as I have two bags full from my greensand mixing days.

It seems that Bentone is derived from Bentonite but is chemically different.

I will try the suppliers listed earlier in this thread next week but thought somebody here may have an idea of where to get the stuff.

Cheers.

Russell.

[Big Shed]

Bentonite 34 is used in the paint industry as a general ant-settling agent.

Perhaps pop in to your local paint manufacturer and offer to swap some for liquid refreshments?

[epineh]

Thanks Fred, I will look that up, the daughters boyfriend happens to work in the paint division of a hardware shop, might be time to call in a favor :)

Russell.

[RayG]

Bentonite 34 is used in the paint industry as a general ant-settling agent.

Perhaps pop in to your local paint manufacturer and offer to swap some for liquid refreshments?



Thanks Fred, good tip, I hope that it's Bentone 34, not Bentonite, different stuff. Bentone is derived somehow from Bentonite.

Being able to make your own petrobond is something that I'd definately be up for..:)

Regards
Ray

[Big Shed]

Yes Bentonite 34 is definitely different to Bentonite, there is also a Bentonite 38.

We used this in paints to stop pigments from settling in the can over time. You can make some good gels with it as well by dispersing it in turps and adding a dash of metho, really increases its' effectiveness as an anti-settling agent.

http://www.kianresin.com/TDS/Additives/bentone%2034.pdf

[RayG]

Yes Bentonite 34 is definitely different to Bentonite, there is also a Bentonite 38.

We used this in paints to stop pigments from settling in the can over time. You can make some good gels with it as well by dispersing it in turps and adding a dash of metho, really increases its' effectiveness as an anti-settling agent.

http://www.kianresin.com/TDS/Additives/bentone%2034.pdf

Hi Fred,

Just to clarify it a bit more precisely what's needed for oil bonded sand is Bentone not Bentonite :)

I looked up Bentone 34, (same pdf as you've already linked to) and paint settling anti-settling is one of it's applications, so it could be a winner.. :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

[Big Shed]

As I mentiond above, as well as Bentone 34 there are a couple of other Bentones as well. Bentone 27 is for use in systems using ketones and alcohols, Bentone 38 is used more in specialist industrial paint applications.

Bentone 34 is the paint industry workhorse and any self respecting paint manufacturer uses it and should have it in stock.

Bentonite is the clay that these 3 are derived from and can be bought in different grades, used extensively in the drilling industry for their muds as well to seal dams and a multitude of other industrial uses.

I'll go back in to retirement now and hang up my white coat:rolleyes:

[epineh]

Sounds like you may be onto something, I asked my (possible) son in law and he doesn't recognize the name, but from what I can gather Bentone is a brand name so they may have it under a different name where he works. He has also only been working there for a short time so may not have come across it yet.

Interesting that you mention adding metho as the recipe linked before has alcohol as the final ingredient, which as my friend remembers turns the whole lot into a plasticine type of consistency. Unfortunately my friend cannot remember where he got the Bentone originally, it was 10 years ago...

Looks like I better get stuck into some milky pine boards and get some patterns ready :)

Cheers.

Russell.

[RayG]

Hi Russell,

We usually add a bit of isopropanol when the petrobond gets a bit "loose" it adds to the green strength somehow.

For what it's worth methylated spirits is 95% ethanol, (the yanks call it DNA, denatured alcohol) whatever you call it, it's not methanol, If I remember correctly shell racing A was mostly methanol, but having said that I'm not clear if it makes any difference whether you use methanol or ethanol... ??

Of course excepting one makes you drunk, the other will send you blind... ( literally) :)

But it the recipe calls for methanol, then that's a good starting point..

Regards
Ray

[Ueee]

Hi Russell,

We usually add a bit of isopropanol when the petrobond gets a bit "loose" it adds to the green strength somehow.

For what it's worth methylated spirits is 95% ethanol, (the yanks call it DNA, denatured alcohol) whatever you call it, it's not methanol, If I remember correctly shell racing A was mostly methanol, but having said that I'm not clear if it makes any difference whether you use methanol or ethanol... ??

Of course excepting one makes you drunk, the other will send you blind... ( literally) :)

But it the recipe calls for methanol, then that's a good starting point..

Regards
Ray

I used to get methanol for remote control planes, i could get it from the hobby shops, but i think i got a 20l drum off it from the airport some years ago. Don't know if they will still sell it to you though, i got it pre 9-11, security around airports is alot tighter now.

Ewan

[epineh]

The alcohol isn't too critical by the looks of it, the recipe mentions either alcohol (isopropyl, like the rubbing alcohol) or methanol, also a couple of other options that will work.

Just gotta find some Bentone 34 and I am in business.

I can post the test results here if anybody is interested, hope to have it sorted and start testing in a week or two.

Russell.

[jhovel]

Thanks Fred, I will look that up, the daughters boyfriend happens to work in the paint division of a hardware shop, might be time to call in a favor :)

Russell.

Russell, a paint SELLER is unlikely have ever heard of Bentone. You need to talk to a paint MANUFACTURER.
Joe

[Big Shed]

Russell, a paint SELLER is unlikely have ever heard of Bentone. You need to talk to a paint MANUFACTURER.
Joe

Yep, that's what I said:wink:

[epineh]

Righto, point taken.

Will start the search next week.

Cheers.

Russell.