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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
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    Lismore Northern NSW
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    Default Choosing indexable milling tools

    I've been looking at catalogues of indexable milling tools and I've got to say there is a huge range of choices with regards to insert shape, material, rake, number etc.

    Can anyone point me towards a guide for selecting such tools? Along the lines of:

    this feature is best for roughing cuts/finishing
    this feature is best for cast iron/aluminium etc
    this feature is intended for general use
    select more/less inserts for.....

    You get the idea. The catalogues have a few pointers but mostly it is a bit of a mystery as to what each tool variation is intended for.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    I suggest that you get hold of a copy of The Engineers Black Book, it's a mine of information, costs vary from about $56 -$90. Well worth the expense.
    https://www.engineersblackbook.com/i...n=auss&prodid=
    I don't have my copy handy, but it contains information on Carbide Cutters, all sorts of engineering formulae, correct angles for sharpening drill bits etc.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    6,439

    Default

    Hi Guys,

    Disclaimer: I use very few carbide tools ! Preferring HSS !

    Carbide insert tooling is fast becoming a particular type of insert for each material and type of cut. Mostly driven by CNC machine tools and industrial manufacturing, where high speeds and maximum tool life is measured in terms of money. The fall out from this creates the plethora of insert types. Where from a hobbyist point of view, many inserts can just as easily do one type of work as another.

    What ever could be recommended by one may not be suitable for the work you want to carry out. The manufacturer gives their recommendations for a particular insert based on the testing that they have done under a particular set of conditions. You need to decide which insert you want/need to use for the work that you want to do.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
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    Default

    I was about to write something in response to the OP's question and then read BaronJ's response, which did most of the work for me. We have a knowledgeable industrial supplier in Adelaide and when I asked a similar question of them many years ago, they hauled out some CMTT inserts (09 size). I still use mainly these today as they fit both my left and right tools and several of my boring bars. Lots of different inserts means keeping track of them all, as well as more cost.

    While some inserts are certainly better for Al or other specific materials, I would not bother with them until you have used inserts for a while. I find that for the limited use I give them, the CCMT's will cut Al, steel, plastic and CI quite adequately. That is not to say that there are not better out there, but one of the mistakes I made in that first rush of enthusiasm for doing metal work was thinking I needed lots of stuff. Perhaps for industrial work where shaving seconds from a job the optimal insert is vital, but for hobby stuff, not so much. At one stage I even started experimenting with different grades but the difference I saw is down in the weeds; the large differences in materials, speeds and feeds in use makes it not worth worrying about.

    Far more important for successful insert use is (I think) having a lathe that is rigid enough and fast enough to get inserts cutting near their intended use conditions. I had a smaller lathe once and inserts just did not work for me. Going to a larger more rigid lathe made a lot of difference in how the results of inserts came out. HSS is not archaic, and still gets used in lots of shops even if only for special jobs, but for the home shop it continues to do valuable and good work.

    Michael

  5. #5
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    Jul 2006
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    Athelstone, SA 5076
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    CMTT inserts (09 size).
    or CCMT....?

  6. #6
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    Feb 2013
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    Laidley, SE Qld
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    Default

    A lot of the hobbyist type indexable milling tools are made to suit either rhomboid APMT/APKT or square SEKT inserts, they will all cut steel, cast iron, stainless or aluminium with varying degrees of success, buy something and have a play. If you buy super sharp inserts for aluminium keep them only for that purpose.

    OT, looking at the pages of my usual tooling supplier I see they are now offering face mills that use the normally unused obtuse corners of the APMT etc inserts.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo View Post
    or CCMT....?
    Yeah, yeah...

    CCMT

    Michael

  8. #8
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    Athelstone, SA 5076
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Yeah, yeah...

    CCMT

    Michael
    thank god for that

    I was beginning to think I didnt know who to how do a google search

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    From my limited experience...

    I was advised when I first got my mill that a good quality insert-style face mill with positive rake inserts would be a very good addition for a home workshop.

    Ended up buying a Kennametal/Stellram 63mm diameter face cutter (p/n 7745VOD04-A063R) that love using. Takes 5 ODMT inserts which are octagonal so have 8 edges per insert.
    I bought 2 types of inserts, a general semi-finishing insert for steel and cast iron (ODMT0404APEN41 SP6519), and some uncoated ones (ODET) for aluminium which I haven't used yet. The inserts are also Kennametal/Stellram so came with specs on cutting speed/depth/feed.
    My mill is an old Van Norman #12 with a 1HP spindle, and I just set it up for the correct speeds etc and let it rip. Its great for surfacing stock quickly and gives a really good finish.

    I also have an ebay special BAP400R shoulder mill with APMT inserts. Its around 40mm diameter. It was cheap but still seems to work well and hasn't failed yet.
    The APMT inserts only have 2 edges to use. No specs with the inserts, so I just run it flat out (1450rpm) and adjust the feed/DOC by feel.
    Its more a case of just having one than it being a good quality tool Definitely saves wearing out HSS end mills for shoulder work though.

    For a face mill, get a good one that your machine can actually run efficiently. In my case the 63mm/5-insert was a useful size, and I have the speed/feed to run it. Any larger would have meant more inserts (cost) and wouldn't have gained me much. Any smaller and I wouldn't have the spindle speed to run it at its intended speed.
    If you can afford to, buy all quality cutters/holders with branded inserts that have specs for running them.
    I think you're better off getting a good face mill with 45/60deg inserts than using a shoulder mill for facing.
    While the shoulder mill will face OK, IME it doesn't do it as well as a proper face mill. I use the face mill more than the shoulder mill hence it was a good decision to fork out for good quality one and save a few dollars on the other.

    Regarding your question about number of inserts, my understanding is that for the likes of a face mill a given diameter a larger number of inserts mainly allows you to run a higher feed rate at the same tooth load - ie faster stock removal. For smaller cutters I'm sure there are other factors such as number of edges in the cut and tendency to chatter/deflect etc but I've no experience with them.

    Steve

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Lismore Northern NSW
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    Default

    thanks everyone for your replies, sorry for the delay in my response but I've been working long hours then sorting some plumbing issues after work into the night!

    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    I suggest that you get hold of a copy of The Engineers Black Book
    I have that book and also "Machinery's Handbook" so will have a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Far more important for successful insert use is (I think) having a lathe that is rigid enough and fast enough to get inserts cutting near their intended use conditions. I had a smaller lathe once and inserts just did not work for me. Going to a larger more rigid lathe made a lot of difference in how the results of inserts came out. HSS is not archaic, and still gets used in lots of shops even if only for special jobs, but for the home shop it continues to do valuable and good work.

    Michael
    I'm thinking/hoping my lathe will be good for the inserts, it weighs 2.5 tonnes and is bolted to the concrete slab. 5 kW.

    Quote Originally Posted by OxxAndBert View Post
    From my limited experience...

    I was advised when I first got my mill that a good quality insert-style face mill with positive rake inserts would be a very good addition for a home workshop.

    Ended up buying a Kennametal/Stellram 63mm diameter face cutter (p/n 7745VOD04-A063R) that love using. Takes 5 ODMT inserts which are octagonal so have 8 edges per insert.
    I bought 2 types of inserts, a general semi-finishing insert for steel and cast iron (ODMT0404APEN41 SP6519), and some uncoated ones (ODET) for aluminium which I haven't used yet. The inserts are also Kennametal/Stellram so came with specs on cutting speed/depth/feed.
    My mill is an old Van Norman #12 with a 1HP spindle, and I just set it up for the correct speeds etc and let it rip. Its great for surfacing stock quickly and gives a really good finish.

    I also have an ebay special BAP400R shoulder mill with APMT inserts. Its around 40mm diameter. It was cheap but still seems to work well and hasn't failed yet.
    The APMT inserts only have 2 edges to use. No specs with the inserts, so I just run it flat out (1450rpm) and adjust the feed/DOC by feel.
    Its more a case of just having one than it being a good quality tool Definitely saves wearing out HSS end mills for shoulder work though.

    For a face mill, get a good one that your machine can actually run efficiently. In my case the 63mm/5-insert was a useful size, and I have the speed/feed to run it. Any larger would have meant more inserts (cost) and wouldn't have gained me much. Any smaller and I wouldn't have the spindle speed to run it at its intended speed.
    If you can afford to, buy all quality cutters/holders with branded inserts that have specs for running them.
    I think you're better off getting a good face mill with 45/60deg inserts than using a shoulder mill for facing.
    While the shoulder mill will face OK, IME it doesn't do it as well as a proper face mill. I use the face mill more than the shoulder mill hence it was a good decision to fork out for good quality one and save a few dollars on the other.

    Regarding your question about number of inserts, my understanding is that for the likes of a face mill a given diameter a larger number of inserts mainly allows you to run a higher feed rate at the same tooth load - ie faster stock removal. For smaller cutters I'm sure there are other factors such as number of edges in the cut and tendency to chatter/deflect etc but I've no experience with them.

    Steve
    I've just taken the plunge and ordered some tools from Taegutec Australia. I ordered a 100mm diameter face mill which takes heptagonal inserts at a positive rake for smaller machines and a 25mm solid carbide end mill. For the lathe I got turning tools with 80deg inserts and also a tool with circular inserts. Was impressed by Taegutec's customer service and rapid response. Will let you know how they go when I get the tooling and have a go!

  11. #11
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    Nov 2017
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    Default

    Sounds good. Those heptagonal inserts look interesting.
    What I've found useful with my face mill is to work out the recommended RPM's and feed rate ranges for materials you use and note it on the insert box or with the tool. In my case I just write it on the insert box as I've only got the one tool that takes those inserts. If you've got multiple tools that need different settings better to keep the note with the tool itself.
    Saves having to calculate RPM etc from the insert spec every time you go to use it!

    Regarding lathe tooling - my lathe is only a baby compared to yours (1.2T) and its very happy with insert tools so yours should be fine as long as you can run them fast enough. My 80deg ones are WNMG. Great for external turning and facing, but there are better choices for boring (same inserts work OK on larger boring bars though).
    For parting I've had good success with cheap MGMN ebay inserts, but others swear by HSS for. I was given a great Sandvik parting tool holder by someone who found it was too big for their lathe. Worked really well but I smashed the only couple of inserts I had due to my own stupidity, and can't justify the $10 per single edge insert to buy more when the cheap ebay ones are doing the job OK. Parting is definitely an operation where you'll likely destroy some tooling until you get the hang of it

    Steve

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