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  1. #16
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_A View Post
    Steve, I was intending to get an MT3 drill chuck with the lathe but I'm curious what you mean by the term "decent". Was thinking an H&F chuck.
    Cheap ebay chucks start at around $25 and for that you won't get a specified runout figure.
    The H&F chucks are more or less the same quality but cost about 3x more and still don't specify a runout

    For near the same money you can get an ebay chuck with a specified runout figure although how reliable they are is anyones guess.

    Here is $100 ebay chuck with a claimed runout of 0.06mm
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-16mm-M...wEb:rk:37:pf:0

    Here's one similarly priced with a <0.08mm
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Keyless-...abd:rk:16:pf:0

    Here's one for $113 with 0.05mm
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0-5-20mm...qMw:rk:17:pf:0

    Of for $600 you can get an https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LLAMBRIC...gAAOSw1u9bq0Q4
    No runout specified on ebay but they claim 0.04 mm on their website.

    Genuine Jacobs keyed chucks can be bought on ebay ranging from ~$120 + postage plus GST up to many hundreds.
    They have a nominal runout of 0.08mm but they have a super grip and are tough as nails.
    With keyed chucks you may be able to improve the runout by tightening using a different order of holes.

    All of my chucks are cheap keyless ebay versions and range from 0.0 mm for one of my better looked after MT3 chucks to 0.65mm!! from the original keyed chuck I got with the Drill press. Generally the cheaper and older and more bashed about they are the worse the runout.

    Unless you have the budget, for a beginner I reckon start with a basic ebay chuck - you could get lucky.
    For precision work you should use collets.

    Some super nerdy measurements of chuck runout are discussed in this post.
    //metalworkforums.com/f65/t2021...outs-machinery

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_A View Post

    Steve, I was intending to get an MT3 drill chuck with the lathe but I'm curious what you mean by the term "decent". Was thinking an H&F chuck.
    I like what you are suggesting with the larger drill bits and indicators.

    Tony
    By 'decent' drill chuck I was meaning something that isn't old and worn out, which grips well and is smooth to use. The comment comes from my personal frustrations with using clapped out old chucks.
    Unfortunately I cant recommend a new one for you from personal experience, but I think if I was starting from scratch with no chucks I'd be looking for something like a 13mm Rohm or Jacobs keyless around the $100-150 range. Well cared for in a home workshop it will probably last a lifetime without going over the top in price.
    You might even want to go for a smaller good quality 10mm one which will be slightly less $$ than the 13mm, and also get a cheap 13mm or 16mm one for the occasion when you need the larger capacity. Likely the same overall cost as one good larger chuck but more flexible.
    I've just bought a couple of reasonable used chucks recently as I was getting tired of always swapping between the center drill and other drills with having only the one chuck.

    My other comment about having some larger drills with morse taper is because although you can get larger reduced parallel shank drills (eg 1/2" shanks), you struggle to grip them in a normal chuck, and when they spin its a PITA with varying results - damaged drill shank, damaged chuck, drill stuck solid in the workpiece or even a trifecta of all 3.

    EDIT: I got this MT2 set recently https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MT2-Mors...aeea:rk:1:pf:0
    I wanted to be able to use them in my drill press too so got MT2, but in hindsight I should have got the MT3 version so they go straight into my tailstock without a reducer sleeve.
    Quality seems OK, they stay sharp, but I chipped the edge on one. Most likely operator error but they might be a more brittle grade of HSS than my other drills

    While I think about it, grab a couple of the small metal handle "spirit" brushes from the paint section at the big green shed (Bunnings) or your local hardware. Great for applying sufficient cutting oil when drilling or parting off without having it spray everywhere like it does when you squirt it from an oil can. I just put a couple of squirts in the bottom of a small tin and dab it on the job from there with the brush.
    If you're buying an oil can - DON'T get the Kinchrome ones from Bunnings. They are poo. BTDT.

    Steve

  3. #18
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by OxxAndBert View Post
    EDIT: I got this MT2 set recently https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MT2-Mors...aeea:rk:1:pf:0
    I wanted to be able to use them in my drill press too so got MT2, but in hindsight I should have got the MT3 version so they go straight into my tailstock without a reducer sleeve.
    Quality seems OK, they stay sharp, but I chipped the edge on one. Most likely operator error but they might be a more brittle grade of HSS than my other drills
    My understanding is that MT drills normally only come as MT1 up to 14 mm, only MT2 between 14.5 and 23mm, MT3 only between 23.5 and 31.5mm etc and are not normally available for a specific diameter in different MT shank sizes so a reducing sleeve or extension has to be used.

    I also bought a basic set, mine was from 14 to 23 mm in 1mm increments (one MT1 and 9, MT2's). Then I added the half mm sizes and integer mm sizes up to 27.5mm, mostly bought from CTC tools when their shipping wasn't so mind numbing.

    My lathe tailstock is MT2 so I can use most of mine direct on my lathe. I have an MT2 male to MT3 female extension so I can use the MT3's on my lathe but I rarely use it. The bigger ones mostly get used in my DP which is an MT3. I can still borrow 64th's MT bits from work up to 50 mm so I haven't bothered with buying any of the bigger sizes.

    I also picked up a cheap set of reduced shank bits, 1mm increments up to 25mm to use on site on nature playground projects where it's mostly wood or steel up to ~6mm. These bits have turned out to be too short for some applications so then had to go and buy some longs.

    For Al I often use Forester bits and have a set that goes up to 75mm in diameter although my MT3 chuck struggles to hold bits >50mm in diameter. Using meths a lube produces extremely tidy holes the lovely wide curlies they make are quite amazing.

  4. #19
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    Thumbs up Lathe work.

    Quote Originally Posted by tony_A View Post
    Baron, If I am reading you correctly you are suggesting getting a standard style tool holder as well? If I am likely to want one of these down the track then will get it with the lathe.
    With regard to tool sharpening I am expecting that the book I mentioned above will cover the theory but I am interested in any jigs that people either have bought or made. I understand where you are coming from with the threading but that's a little way off yet.

    Steve, I was intending to get an MT3 drill chuck with the lathe but I'm curious what you mean by the term "decent". Was thinking an H&F chuck.
    I like what you are suggesting with the larger drill bits and indicators.

    Tony
    Hi Tony,

    I use a home made tool holder called a "Norman patent" tool holder. For me its a fairly new addition. Easy to make and a good project to use to help learn some of the skills that you will need when using the lathe.

    I've posted the design on this forum and some pictures of mine.
    25-09-2018-006.JPG
    This is the Norman patent tool holder that I refereed to.
    18-09-2018-2.JPG
    This is the threading insert I use. In this picture I was about to cut a 4-48 thread when making an elephants foot for a dial indicator.

    Norman-001.jpg
    Lastly, the drawing for the "Norman patent" tool holder.
    Just a note ! If you should decide to build one, I'm happy to talk you through how I built mine. Again from a hobbyist point of view, it beats hands down the square four way style tool holder that I used previously.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  5. #20
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    Thanks John, that's an interesting looking project and thanks for the offer. Will be a little while before I get a chance to have a go at making something like the "Norman" but will certainly get in touch before I do.

    Tony

  6. #21
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    I think a combination of HSS and carbide is the best bet. A few sticks of HSS for regrinding into whatever odd feature is required, like threading or cutting sheave profiles. Carbide through ebay is so insanely cheap, youll really start to question why you wouldnt - the increase in material removal and wider range of abilities in harder materials make it a no brainer for me. Like PDW said, you want to actually get on with things, not stand there and whittle metal away like the old days.

    While I appreciate the EE gear for the novel approach, its kinda a halfway house to carbide that costs an order of magnitude more than carbide. The diamond tools cant readily be reground into different profiles, so youre negating the benefits of traditional style HSS holders. Thats the same for carbide insert tooling, but the carbide inserts will remove more material in less time and cost significantly less. I cant really understand why people go for them.

  7. #22
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    I have an al336 fwiw. I started on HSS and was struggling with time to get decent finish. I now use carbide for everything I can, and use HSS for small stuff things that need very small cutters. i tried carbide thread cutting tool for doing a thread and it broke so I use HSS for cutting threads but I use the best quality HSS I can find. I don't cut threads that fast so HSS is usually ok unless very long thread. I get old stuff from markets, its usually way better than the cheap chinese stuff.
    The finest finish i can get with this lathe is to use a shear cutter running at the finest Y feed you can, and at 50rpm with flood coolant and taking off 0.01mm or 0.02mm at a time. You need to go over the last cutter you used about 2 or 3 times or maybe more, to get rid of the marks it made, because if you go to deep with the shear cutter, it goes blunt very quickly. If you work out how long that takes to do in time, its a long time. 2nd best finish and just about as good is to use carbide at high speed and no collant. You do that in seconds and you don't sneak up on the final diameter. In fact you need to develop a technique where you end on a decent DOC that you already know exactly how much it will take off, and hit that final diameter exactly. i only use HSS now for tiny stuff that needs small HSS cutters. Actually I use HSS for threads, although I have made a carbide cutter to create even wear in the X leadscrew of my mill. I used a carbide cut off insert which I shaped with a diamond wheel. I didn't want the HSS to blunten and lose its indexing when i had to sharpen it. You can sharpen carbide like HSS using diamond wheel or I use those diamond blocks aldi sell every so often. For a less rigid lathe like the al336, I find you get a considerably better finish if you sharpen the carbide inserts. I sharpen them so they can shave my thumbnail easily. They keep their edge pretty well.
    For cut off tool, I couldn't work HSS on this lathe. its not rigid enough and a problem with the QCTP is it puts a lot of leverage onto the tool post and you can see the cut off tool lean over and you know in a second its going to catch and snap. Better to get carbide cut off tool and sharpen it and run it at fast speed.
    For boring I have solid Carbide boring bars which I got cheap second hand. They are fantastic I have one that can do a 5mm hole upwards and a variety thereafter. They are very expensive but way better than dicking about with thin HSS which goes blunt and is so slow and too bendy for small diameters. Carbide gives great finish when run fast and sharpened on this lathe. I usually just sharpen carbide by hand but have a diamond wheel for reshaping those boring bars after they have worn too much. I'm not saying using HSS is wrong, its just I much prefer using Carbide when i can. The lathe can handle it but its even better if you sharpen it.

  8. #23
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    Thanks for the comments Sossity. What grit diamond blocks do you use to sharp carbide cutters and what grit wheel do you use. Presume you are running the wheel on a standard bench grinder.

    Secondly, the QCTP that is available with the 336 can take 16 mm tooling while all the specs for this lathe say 12 mm tooling. Can you use 16 mm tooling on the lathe?

    Tony

    Tony

  9. #24
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    In a way, so long as the cutting tip (HSS or carbide) can be adjusted to be on centre it matters not whether you are using 12mm or 16mm holders.
    It is important to check that you actually can do that with a 16mm QCTP on the AL336, I would have thought it to be marginal.

  10. #25
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    I think they say that lathe can only take 12mm tooling for the reason Bob said. 16mm physically fits into the holders (sometimes, it's a close fit) My insert holder for carbide inserts is 16mm though. I had to take off a very small amount for it to fit in the tool holder itself. I just held in on a belt sander, and took the material from the top surface, so the angles were not affected, ie it sits true on the bottom of the tool holder. I do remember with some 16mm HSS fitted the tool holder but I had to grind off the top off the HSS at the end, because it was too high. However, I don't have a problem with the carbide for some reason and I can lower or raise it from centre, so I'm not sure why that should be. The insert must be lower than the top of the holder. If you have a mill, you can just take off the bottom of the carbide cutter to lower it once. 16 is much more rigid than 12mm. I think some tool holders drop lower on the QCTP than others as well, so watch for that.

    I got W.German made indexable carbide holders and they work very well. They came with a threading insert tool but the problem I found was it chipped because I thread at low speed and used too much pressure. HSS is better for threading as far as I could see.

    I got a set of carbide indexable boring bars from ozmestore and they were useless. I don't know if they are too flexible, or the carbide is no use, but they are not even close to the performance of solid carbide boring bars. waste of money tbh. Even sharpening the inserts doesn't help with those. HSS is probably better than them.


    The aldi block looks like this but it only cost $10. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Silverline-Tools-Diamond-Sharpening-Block-160-x-55mm-374894/401509551762?epid=1605648954&hash=item5d7bd58e92:gPoAAOSwP25a1Iaa:rk:60f:0
    Trouble is you never know when they will have them again.

    I use 400 grit for removing any damage quickly and 600 grit for sharpening. If you keep dipping the insert in kerosene it cuts really quickly. Just keep mopping up the dirty kero with a tissue to keep the diamonds from clogging.

    The diamond wheel I got looks like this and I stuck it on a 6" bench grinder. I think it was $12.50. I rarely use the wheel though, only for reshaping the boring bars when a light sharpen is no longer enough. Sharpening inserts by hand on the blocks is pretty easy, just slide back and forward keeping the flat edge, flat.
    ScreenShot577.jpg
    This might be a terrible idea, but I keep dipping the carbide into kerosene for the wheel too. Seems to work pretty good.

  11. #26
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Recently I found a research article which compared conventional (flood) cooling, Optimised (directed or jet) cooling, and Minimal Quantity lubrication (misting) cooling in diamond grinding.
    Evaluation of different methods of cooling-lubrication in cylindrical grinding of advanced ceramic dip
    The coolant used for the flood and jet coolant methods was water containing a 5% ROCOL cutting oil, while the mist cooling used a proprietary vegetable based oil applied at the rate of 80mL hour. The testing was done on ceramic discs using a 350 mm diameter x 15 mm wide diamond wheel.

    The results showed that some methods were better than others for certain things (eg tangential force, wheel wear, finish etc) so there was no clear best method. What I got from that document was that water and a small dollop of water soluble cutting oil could be used as a lube so I set myself up with a squirt bottle of it. I haven't used it very often but so far it does seem quicker than dry grinding. I just squirt some on the spinning wheel and then repeat that every 3-4 passes of the cutter across the wheel. Then when I finish I leave the wheel running and give the wheel a a good squirt which leaves the wheel nice and clean.

    My diamond wheel is a 6" diameter flat disc on the side of my CBN wheel. One advantage of this approach is that it doesn't need another grinder to run that wheel.

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