Thread: TCT Armour Piercing Drills.

What you have said is again not true. Again, I would urge you to do some more research before posting further, though of course that's up to you. What you are alleging is however NOT correct in relation to the properties of that steel. It may be YOUR experience with it in the state you see it when it has the label "HSS" on it, but steels with similar compositions do not have to be brittle by definition. With all due respect, you are mistaken to believe so. You will need to do your own research as to why that is so.

I'm a little flabbergasted by some of the allegations you're making, as they seem to defy even the most basic logic. If this was merely an independent tool supplier it would be one thing, but as pointed out above, precisely the same tool design is used by Artu, a highly credible German tool maker! If they now manufacture in China, big deal, join the club, so does nearly everyone else these days including many specialist carbide manufacturers, are they somehow crap too? Yet despite all this evidence you're maintaining that a highly respected tool company is using, quote, "a poor engineering choice" in its use of materials! I tell you what, why don't you email Artu and tell their engineers that.

Later you, rather remarkably, accuse this company of "probably" using Artu rejects in their product line. That allegation is based on what precisely?

What is "bog standard" tungsten carbide? You do realise that there are almost countless different grades of TC right? Each has different properties, some very much so.

Look I have better things to do with my time than try to endlessly provide facts to counter completely baseless accusations and ignorance of a topic, so given you've made up your mind, based on ... well nothing in fact, knock yourself out. I take it you won't be a customer in future. I do find it remarkable that on the one hand you acknowledge that there are differences in their design to standard masonry drill, though (incorrectly) claim those differences won't make a difference and/or are "poor engineering choices" and/or are some sort of elaborate scam, yet having acknowledged their differences, go on to say there is "basically no difference". Well, which is it?

Can a standard masonry drill be sharpened to perform similarly? Yes absolutely, which is one of the reasons I didn't buy a set!!! BUT to say they're the same is frankly BS, by your own admission! It's like saying that just because I can snap off a file and sharpen it to use it as a lathe turning tool, there is no difference between a snapped off file and a KC850 carbide insert. That is plainly absurd.

Can you use a standard masonry bit to drill hardened material? If sharpened correctly, Yes. Is a standard masonry bit therefore the same as these? No. Get over that fact and move on. Are these types of bits worth the money? Dunno, not to me they weren't. Other's milage may well be different. But I think the decision should be made on actual facts and not nonsense and baseless allegations that are in themselves highly implausible.

I have absolutely no connection to either company and don't own a set of these bits. I have seen them demonstrated though, a number of times, and they definitely work as shown in the video. What can't be denied however are the claims both companies make are based on legitimate engineering principles, and if somebody doesn't understand them that's not really any excuse to start slinging mud.

I've taken some photos to help cut through a bit of the BS that has been spread on this thread, as I think some here may be interested.

The first is a brand new 6.5 mm Irwin brand SDS note the tip geometry

6.5 mm new.jpg

The second is also a 6.5 mm bit, this one Metabo, used but in excellent condition. Look carefully at the rake, the relief and where the "cutting" edge sits in relation to the shank.

6.5 mm used.jpg

The final 2 pictures are of an 8 mm P&N conventional shank drill. Sorry the picture isn't great, but note how there is NO RELIEF! That has been resharpened and hasn't been used since. It will function perfectly as a masonry drill, but will be useless as is for conventional drilling and will just rub.

10 mm a.jpg10 mm b.jpg

I think what some here don't seem to quite understand is that there is a massive difference between the action of a masonry drill and a conventional twist drill, with the former basically smashing up the masonry then pushing it out the way, while the latter actually cut. Just as the two tool makers mentioned here alluded to. That's one reason the masonry drills have such grief (and can overheat) when they hit reo as they will rub badly. That's when I will lose the carbide inserts. On a bad day the drill will grab the reo and that can get "interesting" as my rotary hammer drill has a lot of torque. Many here will be old enough to recall the use of star drills, before the days of ubiquitous carbide and cheap power tools, and how the star drill work. A regular masonry drill works in a somewhat similar way. If I get time however I'll try to find a suitable masonry drill bit I can resharpen to illustrate how resharpening them with a new geometry will get them to cut metal etc just fine.

I've used some similar drills to those discussed by the OP, indeed was just looking for them the other day but for some reason couldn't find them. I believe they're marketed as "universal bits", "General purpose" bits, or similar. I used them as I was doing a lot of work in abrasive materials and they lasted longer (but still went blunt). I'm pretty sure they were P&N, but I'd have to try to find them again to look, and see if there's any difference between these and the drills being discussed here. One thing as sure as my butt points south is they were nothing like masonry bits.

Originally Posted by Pete F

What you have said is again not true. Again, I would urge you to do some more research before posting further, though of course that's up to you. What you are alleging is however NOT correct in relation to the properties of that steel. It may be YOUR experience with it in the state you see it when it has the label "HSS" on it, but steels with similar compositions do not have to be brittle by definition. With all due respect, you are mistaken to believe so. You will need to do your own research as to why that is so.

High speed steel is just a group of different grades of tool steel. Sure, they can be supplied in many different conditions, but as supplied in the condition suitable for drilling, HSS has traded much of its toughness for absolute hardness, and as a result, *in that condition*, is brittle. It's undeniable. Compare it to any number of similar tool steels, and steels in the HSS group are brittle in the cutting condition. But that's why we make drills from it - we value the hot-hardness and wear resistance over the absolute toughness. There are absolutely states in which a typical HSS alloy could be supplied that would emphasize toughness, but that would be at the detriment of its usefulness as the wear material of a cutting tool

Originally Posted by Pete F

I'm a little flabbergasted by some of the allegations you're making, as they seem to defy even the most basic logic. If this was merely an independent tool supplier it would be one thing, but as pointed out above, precisely the same tool design is used by Artu, a highly credible German tool maker! If they now manufacture in China, big deal, join the club, so does nearly everyone else these days including many specialist carbide manufacturers, are they somehow crap too? Yet despite all this evidence you're maintaining that a highly respected tool company is using, quote, "a poor engineering choice" in its use of materials! I tell you what, why don't you email Artu and tell their engineers that.

Later you, rather remarkably, accuse this company of "probably" using Artu rejects in their product line. That allegation is based on what precisely?

I'm not slagging them for being made in China at all, but look at the realities of production for christs sake. I didn't even have anything to say about the quality relating to whether it was made in China, so stop being disingenuous and creating a strawman.

All I said is for the simple fact of production cost, the drills will undoubtedly be made in China, in a factory that specializes in doing small runs of custom cutting tools - and that

Originally Posted by Pete F

What is "bog standard" tungsten carbide? You do realise that there are almost countless different grades of TC right? Each has different properties, some very much so.

What they are describing as their whizz-bang space-age super secret tungsten cutting alloy, with it's mysterious titanium and cobalt additives - all it is is marketing wank describing innumerable grades of sintered tungsten carbide that are overwhelmingly based on cobalt and titanium binders - that's the nature of tungsten carbide.

They're using marketing wank words to disingenuously describe plain old tungsten carbide, and if you're taken in by that, so be it, but I'm not impressed.

Originally Posted by Pete F

Look I have better things to do with my time than try to endlessly provide facts to counter completely baseless accusations and ignorance of a topic, so given you've made up your mind, based on ... well nothing in fact, knock yourself out. I take it you won't be a customer in future. I do find it remarkable that on the one hand you acknowledge that there are differences in their design to standard masonry drill, though (incorrectly) claim those differences won't make a difference and/or are "poor engineering choices" and/or are some sort of elaborate scam, yet having acknowledged their differences, go on to say there is "basically no difference". Well, which is it?

I haven't 'made up my mind' on anything other than that it's patently obvious that the exact same capabilities that these over-engineered over-priced drills probably do exactly what they say they do, but the exact same functionality can be achieved by re-sharpening a bog standard masonry drill from Bunnings to have the appropriate clearances for cutting metal.

You're projecting a whole bunch of stuff that I'm not even saying, in some misguided defence of a product that you say you have no dog in the fight over - why so insecure, buddy?

If you've got better things to do, go do them.

Originally Posted by Pete F

Can a standard masonry drill be sharpened to perform similarly? Yes absolutely, which is one of the reasons I didn't buy a set!!! BUT to say they're the same is frankly BS, by your own admission! It's like saying that just because I can snap off a file and sharpen it to use it as a lathe turning tool, there is no difference between a snapped off file and a KC850 carbide insert. That is plainly absurd.

Which is precisely what I've been claiming the whole time. Take any Sutton masonry drill from Bunnings, and regrind it to have appropriate metal cutting clearance, and you've achieved 99% of what the marketing wank that LPR and ARTU are trying to sell you. There is no magic to what they are selling, and I doubt what they are selling will perform any better, despite what their marketing is trying to claim.

Both LPR and ARTU are selling nothing more than re-sharpened masonry drills that have been over-engineered with a bunch of marketing nonsense that adds very little to the core functionality. You don't need a HSS shank. You don't need 1000°C brazing. You just need a Sutton masonry drill, a diamond grinding wheel, and 10 minutes, and it's been proven time and time again all over the shop exactly what you'll get.

Pull your head out mate. Everyone understands, you're suffering from reverse Dunning-Kruger. It's patently obvious to anyone suggesting that a standard masonry drill can substitute for one of these snake-oil drills, that you *must regrind the carbide insert* of the drill to provide proper metal cutting clearances. So if you're too high and mighty to keep arguing the point, don't. But everyone else is fully aware of whats going on with these drills, and you're just being pointlessly condescending while you preach to the choir.

Horses for courses.

You can drill hard steels by regrinding a masonry drill. I'd only do this if I had to drill a hole or two in hard materials, maybe once or twice a year.

As Pete F points out some carbide tipped drills are supplied with a cutting edge suitable for drilling hard materials. I'd use such a drill if I thought I might do say up to 100 holes a year in hard materials, in this case I might spend the money on the ones in the sizes of interest to me. The other use is that I might want to drill lots of holes in a abrasive materials and not have to regularly sharpen my drill bit. Specifically domestic electrical switchboards are quite abrasive on drill bits and as a sparky I might be more concerned with having a drill bit able to cut the material without having to constantly resharpen the bit. Here a 3.2mm carbide tipped bit significantly outlasts TiN coated HSS

Generally, I would not choose either for a higher production workshop environment. I consider that the cutting edge geometry is not good enough for that environment. Specifically the 90 degree lip angle.

The use of a higher temperature brazing material is probably good sense. That 90 degree lip angle is going to produce a lot of heat in cutting metal. If you doubt that, check out the desireable cutting temps for the various coatings.

The process of making a hole has been around for a very long time, it's possibly the most intensely studied subtractive engineering process. Modern drill bits have some of the highest material removal rates of any cutting tool. Having said that, don't expect to put a $200, 9.5mm drill bit into your 1962 model drill press and get wham, bam, thank you mam performance.

There is a lot of technology in modern drills once you look past basic HSS. Look at the top end of manufacturers like Guhring or OSG. Special materials, flute shapes, helix angles and coatings to suit different materials and depth of hole. In carbide there are many grades with none of them pure tungsten carbide. Rather they are particles of tungsten carbide in a cobalt based filler material, changing the size of the grains or their density in the cobalt will change the properties of the material and this gives rise to all the designations.

As a drill user I don't really care too much about the exact specification of the unobtainium alloy used to make the drill bit. I don't care how closely the manufacturer sticks to his stated recipe for making the drill bit. I don't have to understand their choices of materials. What I care about is how well the drill bit makes the hole I want.

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke

Precious Mettle, the fact that you seem to feel you need to get personal in this whole discussion merely adds weight to the fact you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and need to resort to that route. Like I said I strongly suggest you do some more research before making a further fool of yourself, but if you decide not to, that's entirely your business. I will however give you a bit of a hint to save further grief, look at the class of ALLOYED STEELS that "HSS" falls under. Nobody said it was supplied in the state "suitable for drilling", that's ... the ... whole ... point!

I have addressed precisely the allegations you have made, and provided what I believe are FACTS to support what I've said. You have provided nothing more than opinions on what you think. You're perfectly entitled to do that, however should be aware that, in my own opinion, your opinion is not supported by any facts whatsoever. You have absolutely no idea what grade of carbide either manufacturer is using, and seem completely unaware that, just like oils ain't oils, "carbide ain't carbide". Perhaps you would like to provide a manufacturer's number to this "plain old carbide" you keep referring to?

Nothing insecure about me, I think most people here who have been around a bit longer than you will testify to that. They will also say that I call BS when I see it, which I'm afraid I'm calling on your posts. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. The fact that you suggested putting a "4 facet" grind on a masonry bit merely cements the picture. I doubt it would even be possible to get a 4 facet grind in on a weeny bit of carbide! Indeed how it's accomplished is to simply grind relief on the carbide and the way it's brazed in takes care of the secondary relief. But you would already know that. Or maybe not.

You seem to be changing your story, then contradicting yourself, then changing it again then contradicting yourself it's all a tad difficult to keep up to be honest. I quite plainly said that a masonry bit can be resharpened to cut metal, no secrets there. What you don't seem to understand, and hopefully if you do a bit more research instead of personal insults, you will discover, is that drill bits like these are designed specifically to drill multi materials. As such they have features that make them more suitable for that purpose. Masonry bits are designed specifically for, wait for it, drilling masonry. I couldn't find my universal bits, I have no idea where they are and why I can't find them. They did go blunt, and I don't bother sharpening small drill bits, so presume I threw them out. I STRONGLY suggest you do some more research before quacking on further. Again, look at "universal" drill bits, "general purpose" drill bits, "one drill bit does all" style marketing, etc etc. You'll find many of them with very similar features to those advertised here. Sounds like it's going to be a long night of emailing engineers telling them they don't know what they're doing

Looking for my universal bits I emptied my stash out and have to declare right now, "My name is Pete F and I have a drilling problem". Ok I knew I had quite a few drill bits, but have to admit it might be getting a tad out of hand! Regardless the number I need always seems to be 1 less than the number I have, and I continue to buy more. I go through a lot in the 2-4 mm sizes (well used to when I had time) so buy them often ... errr, very often it seems. Anyway, I took some more photos for those who may be interested.

The first is a Joran 5 mm, made in Denmark. The significance of that is the grind is very different to the heavier duty masonry drills I posted earlier. These little babies are meant for conventional hammer drills, and probably wouldn't be up to a rotary hammer, they're not SDS in any case.

Joran.jpg

The second is a Sutton, but made in France interestingly enough. It's 5/16th, just to prove I still have some archaic relics around ... beside myself.

It looks like the braze in that got pretty hot, that would be the braze where it apparently doesn't matter if it gets hot according to some, and it was very close to failing. Indeed I have some memories of using that in particularly hard concrete/steel and it was struggling. In fact I think last time I may have even swapped it out for an SDS/rotary and got serious.

Sutton.jpg

The last one is what happens when the braze fails due to hitting hard reo and the bit overheating due to rubbing. Of course we now know that's all just "marketing hype", what am I thinking. The drill bit is Chinese rubbish, but of course that doesn't matter as "all carbide is the same" ... or so we're told.

10 mm SDS Chinese wonder bit.

Chinese.jpg

What you don't seem to quite get "Precious" is that these universal bits are designed to drill pretty much anything. They are NOT just modified masonry bits and are designed to be abused and used hard. If you looked more closely at the drill shank you would have noticed they don't even look like typical masonry bits! I'll send you some more photos if you've never seen a masonry bit. Modifying a masonry bit will definitely work to drill hardened steel with care, but that's not how they're marketed. They are designed to be used by Mr Builder/farmer/diyer/etc etc etc where they may be drilling multi materials, sometimes all in the one hole. How would I know that? Well that's precisely what I was doing with mine! While modifying a masonry bit will work, it's originally designed to drill masonry, so if the grind is modified the carbide won't take too kindly to its next meeting with concrete. Otherwise it would be ground with that geometry in the first place! Obvious I would have thought ... not to one person apparently.

The Berybloke absolutely nailed it, drilling is a remarkably complex operation, and those who like to pretend it's all so easy are merely demonstrating their ignorance. These "universal" drill bits aren't a panacea to all drilling situations, but by focussing on a few things like high temperature brazes and using higher tensile steels ... ooops, did I just give away another hint, then they can basically get away with quite a bit ... if you pardon the pun. But if they were as good at everything as specifically designed bits we would all just need one set, and sadly (or fortunately in my case) that's not the case.

I'll be the first to admit when this thread started I saw the claim of "arbour piercing" etc etc etc and the red flag went up. However I then recalled that I had indeed seen them in action a few times, and even used something somewhat similar. There's no doubt the "spiel" that accompanies these drills is generous with the "fluff" and uses terms more suited to the layman than to people like this forum with a better understanding of metals. However in my opinion that's a function of their obvious target market, and I haven't seen anything in their claims that is technically "wrong". Unlike the claims of "Precious", I don't think these drills are especially expensive given the complete package and the way they're marketed. I haven't bought them, but over the years have bought other things from that company and always found them good to deal with and have provided good value for money. Obviously all the above is just MY opinion, and it apparently differs from others', nevertheless I believe that the facts provided are rock solid and valid.

Edit: Just for completeness I thought some here would claim in their self-professed wisdom that masonry drills will drill steel without modification. I couldn't get any SDS masonry drills to sit properly in my drill press chuck, and most of my straight shank drill bits are reground, so not a fair playing field. So I spun the top two at max RPM and hit some mild steel, just to see if I could get some action. Unremarkably they didn't do squat, other than the larger one almost stalling my drill press. They were just rubbing and smearing the metal away. With enough force they probably would have gone through, but weren't cutting at all, and despite the claims here, they would have overheated and the braze would have failed if I persisted. I doubt I'll get a chance to regrind them, as once reground they need to be taken back to this type of geometry to make them suitable for concrete again. I think everyone agrees they can be made to cut with regrinding anyway.

I'm pretty sure the general purpose drill bits I was using are those shown in Sutton's catalogue on page 42, although I think I was using their older versions. https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws....ogueDrills.pdf

Of note however is their new bits that advertise ... wait for it, high temperature brazing to withstand 1000 degrees C, and the use of 50 Cr-V steel for the drill shanks. Wow, now where have I seen that before ... wait I remember.

Precious Mettle please feel free to apologise at your convenience to both myself and the companies you so generously slagged off, or are you going to send off another email to Sutton too, telling them they don't know what they're doing?

PS. Oh and by the way Mr "reverse Dunning-Kruger", Christ is spelled with a capital C.

I'm not going to indulge your silly strawman argument. As I said in my first reply:

Originally Posted by Precious Mettle

Putting a 4-facet grind on a standard masonry drill would accomplish the exact same thing, I'd think, and those shanks are usually just a rolled helix in some standard cheese grade steel.

But if you want to keep talking down to me as if I don't know what a decent drill cutting geometry is, feel free. It's your time, not mine.

Regardless of what grade of carbide the insert is, or what material the shank is made from, the fact of the matter remains that functionally you aren't getting anything more than what we know a reground masonry drill will do. These drills aren't a miracle. They're a well established concept commercialized, and sold with a healthy dose of marketing snake-oil to make them sound a whole lot more miraculous than they are.

Originally Posted by Precious Mettle

But if you want to keep talking down to me as if I don't know what a decent drill cutting geometry is, feel free. It's your time, not mine.

Regardless of what grade of carbide the insert is, or what material the shank is made from, the fact of the matter remains that functionally you aren't getting anything more than what we know a reground masonry drill will do. These drills aren't a miracle. They're a well established concept commercialized, and sold with a healthy dose of marketing snake-oil to make them sound a whole lot more miraculous than they are.

Mate, for God's sake (notice the capital G?), there is a time to know when to stop digging

Right from my very first response asking you to question why they might highlight the use of alternative steels, I have repeatedly given you MANY opportunities to extract yourself with dignity and save face, yet you continue to come back in and apprently make yourself look like a complete idiot. If you think I'm "talking down to you" regarding this, that might be because you have consistently proven beyond any doubt in my eye that you have NFI what you're talking about. No shame in that, everyone needs to start somewhere, but LPR Toolmakers (nor did I for that matter) did not deserve to be the target of your vitriol based on nothing more than your overzealous opinion and, in my opinion, a whole pile of ignorance!

The part I highlighted from your quote appears, yet again, to be completely untrue and is seems to highlight your lack of knowledge of the design of this type of tool. Despite your claim, that does NOT seem to be a fact and not one of your so called facts are indeed backed up by established wisdom in the field. You haven't even attempted to prove these "facts" and have instead merely resorted to personal attacks. As BB quite correctly suggested, if you just want to drill just one or two holes a year in hardened material, then it's probably just as easy to regrind a masonry drill, it will work just fine for onsies-twosies. If you want to drill a lot of holes in hardened material with a rigid setup like a drill press then the tool for that job is a solid carbide drill. If you think these "snake oil" drills are expensive, clearly you've never bought solid carbide tooling However if you're in situations where you need to drill hardened materials, masonry, wood, cement sheet, etc etc, possibly in one hole with hand held tools (and BTW that's EXACTLY what I was doing, only multiplied by about a squillion holes in a 2 day exercise in patience) then a compromise drill bit like this is definitely the way to go. No they're NOT the same as a masonry drill, though in some cases they do look similar. The clues to the differences, are the features the manufacturers quote! ... or are you one of those tin-foil hat wearers "Precious" who thinks the whole world is a giant conspiracy out to get you?

For those who may be actually interested in this type of thing. One of the differences is the flute design, and that's where some big compromises can occur. Those who don't know squat about drilling will zoom in on the cutting edge and forget the rest of the drill is not there merely just to spin the cutting edge. The flutes for example serve a very important purpose, and that is to evacuate the material being drilled. If they don't do their job well, the drill won't be as effective and at worst will jam and fail. Drilling masonry for example the spoil off it will be dust, and the flutes designed to carry large volumes of that out very quickly. Conversely with wood, the flutes are tight fitting in the bore and need to auger the chips out. A very different purpose, hence a very different design. Aluminium or mild steel may come out as spirals, and they need to be handled differently again. That's why when you look at drills designed specifically for those operations the flute design will be completely different and often a lot of thought goes in to the precise shape and design of the flutes. The issue with these universal drills is they need to come up with something that's a compromise, and by default that means they won't do any one thing especially well compared to a drill designed specifically for that purpose. That's just the way it is, a bit like buying a Honda SUV and then thinking you're going to cross the Simpson Desert in it! In the case of the LPR drills, they look more like a masonry drill, yet I don't recall the ones I saw being particularly that way, however maybe I just wasn't paying attention. The Artu ones definitely do look more like they based their design off masonry drill shanks and "beefed them up" as required. Conversely the Sutton bits I used looked more like a conventional twist drill that had carbide brazed in the end. I don't know what the different companies engineers intend, hopefully when "Precious" gets his replies from the engineers, having told them how stupid they are, he will share that gem of wisdom with us, and we'll all be wiser.

I've got a set of the ARTU drills and for what it's worth find them very useful.
I too had seem the bloke demonstrating them at the Bendigo swap year after year and was often tempted to get a set but usually needed the money for some other rusty treasure.
I used to sharpen masonry drills for drilling tough steels and it usually got the job done but a tidy accurate hole was rarely the result.
Talking to a locksmith mate one day and as happens, the subject of carbide tipped drills came up. I described my modified masonry drills and he laughed and said he would give me one of his old ARTU drills.
His reasons for this preference:
The ARTU drills come in sizes not readily available in standard masonry drills.
He needs holes to be accurate and not wander.
He's a a business and can't waste time messing around modifying tools if he can buy one ready to go.
I took his well used drill home and put it to the test drilling similar items to those the swap demo bloke does and sure enough, it work as promised.

When using these drills the usual speeds go out the window, for example when drilling hard steel like a file you run them has fast as you can, 3000rpm or so and push hard and consistently on the drill, they seem to not so much cut as burn their way through which means the tips get incredibly hot. The ARTU drill cut through the file reasonably quickly leaving a clean hole.
Very happy me thinks but can I do the same with a sharpened masonry drill?
I sharpened up a new Sutton 6.5mm drill emulating the ARTU facets as close as possible. Using the same speed and pressure the modified masonry drill managed to drill into the file albeit a bit slower and about 2/3 of the way through the hole began to wander around a bit but it got through.
The hole was not as clean as the first hole and having a close look at the bit I'm pretty sure the braizing had melted or softened as the carbide had definably moved. I've got no idea what the ARTU carbide is braized on with but I suspect it has a higher melting point than what appears to be standard bronze on the masonry drill.
The ARTU drill shanks are chrome vanadium, just like a spanner, I suspect this allows more pressure to be applied than with a masonry drill which bend fairly readily.

I didn't rush out and buy a set of ARTU drills but did pick up a set at the next Bendigo swap and as stated, I like them a lot because they just work out of the box and can drill one tidy hole after another without touching them up.

Do you need to get a set? No.
Can you get by with modding masonry drills? In my experience, yes.
Are the ARTU drills made of mythical interstellar alloys ground using extra terrestrial techniques? I don't know but they do work as promised.
Cheers,
Greg.

Great report Greg, thanks for sharing your experience. Like you, when I've seen them I've reached my credit limit on other "goodies" so they've had to wait for another day. In all honesty I can't recall which brand they were I saw, I initially thought they were LPR's but the more I saw Artu the more I wondered if it was in fact theirs. It really doesn't matter, as there are many versions of similar tools. You're absolutely right, when drilling hardened steels the tool can get very hot. When I hard turn or mill, the chips come off literally red hot. I don't find it at all surprising regular braze will fail at the potential working temperatures.

To hopefully shed some more light on this whole thing, I went down to the local hardware store and bought their interpretation of this tool. They were stocking Bosch, made in Germany CYL-9 Multi Construction multi-purpose drill bits | Bosch I believe the ones I'd used before were Sutton. I note Bunnings no longer sells them and has a brand called "Kango" or something similar. It appears to me, based purely on my opinion, that Bunnings are increasingly dispensing with brand names and substituting other products distributed exclusively by them. I have no idea who "Kango" are. I do know I won't be buying them.

Anyway, this is a 6 mm Bosch with the view from 90 degrees to try to illustrate both the cutting edge/relief and the helix design on the shank. I wasn't about to go buy some more masonry drills of the same brand to do an actual side by side shot as I don't need more straight shank masonry drills and there's only so much I'll do for the cause! However I did compare the shanks of the two side by side in store, and there was a definite difference in the shanks. Apart from the obvious grinding of the multi-construction bits, the masonry bits seemed to have a deeper gullet on the helix. I presume that would provide better dust evacuation of the masonry. I guess the multi-construction bits require the additional, the company similarly advertise the use of alloyed steel in these bits.

Bosch 1.jpgBosch 2.jpg

Another (in my opinion completely unjustified) criticism of the LPR bits were their price. Apparently a ripoff according to some here. I didn't buy a full set of the Bosch, again there's only so much I'll do for the cause, but a set of 7 was $71.30 incl GST. To compare, LPR are charging $77.95 incl GST for a set of 5, but also include a tin of Tap Magic cutting fluid, a diamond file to keep them sharp (and in my experience when cutting hardened materials with carbide you need to keep it sharp), and include postage. I think that's quite reasonable in my opinion.

There's nothing like the deafening silence of a missing apology

Interesting discussion. Good to get some real feedback on these drills.

I go to field days at times and have seen the same guy drilling big holes in steel plate with a metal cutting single point rotary cutter (looks like a souped up wood working type) and thinking back I recon he had these drills - pretty sure that was another part of his metal work act. These guys are real showmen, and that always puts me off with this stuff. But maybe I misjudged him

I know for sure that the Bullfinch LPG brazing torch is not snake oil, the low temperature (cough cough) aluminium brazing rods do sort of work, and the man selling duck call whistles was a nightmare for nearby stall holders - plus I didn't see any ducks fly over.

Price wise I think the drills are fair value given the cost of a similar set of decent quality masonry drills. Much the same money when you allow for the lube/oil and diamond dresser.

Do I need them ? Not really. Are they better than a modified masonry drill ? I would expect so if you do this type of work regularly.

Am I going to rush out and buy some ? No, but I will have a closer look at the next field day for sure.

Ps. The guy I see doing the snake oil display with this stuff has the dirtiest, oiliest, crapiest pillar drill I've ever seen. He looks much the same.

Field days are always entertaining.

Cheers Rob

Originally Posted by nearnexus

Interesting discussion. Good to get some real feedback on these drills.

I go to field days at times and have seen the same guy drilling big holes in steel plate with a metal cutting single point rotary cutter (looks like a souped up wood working type) and thinking back I recon he had these drills -

That would be the super drill
PracTool | Super Drill

I have used one and back in the 1980's and 1990's they really were really good for rural people who might have only owned a pedestal drill and a 1/16" to 1/2" drill set with all the small ones broken or missing. They still are good but these days there is more at our disposal. Step drills for example. They were simpler times back then.

Originally Posted by .RC.

That would be the super drill
PracTool | Super Drill

They were simpler times back then.

Still the same really.

You can always spot the guy selling these gadgets - just look for a ring of about 30 farmers in a tight circle surrounding a pillar drill at close quarters.

You might be lucky and see the snake oil salesman's head bobbing around in the middle.

Lots of looking but not much buying

Typical cockies - big decision and hate parting with money.

The other popular gizmo this guy always had was the wire twitch hose clamp tool. A sort of "T" shaped thing with a cone shaped end and screw thread that pulled wire coils tight around anything, and folded over the ends. I copied the design and made one, and it worked well. I think the Bro-Inlaw has it now.

Good times.

Rob

Rob the current fave seems to be fence wire strainers of various concoction. Many nodding heads with a guy in the middle making it look all so easy. I think it's a bit like a mousetrap; everyone's trying to build a better one

Originally Posted by Pete F

Rob the current fave seems to be fence wire strainers of various concoction. Many nodding heads with a guy in the middle making it look all so easy. I think it's a bit like a mousetrap; everyone's trying to build a better one

He He. I haven't been to one for a few years.

Was going to go last year but had a bruised foot and couldn't do a lot of walking. I must check out the wire strainers. Hard to imagine they could improve on the typical rotary handle torque click off type.

Always lots of nodding heads. LOL

Rob