Thread: Are the more expensive Hafco mills any better?

Originally Posted by j3dprints

Better than their cheaper mill drills or Hm-50s?

I'm thinking especially of a https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M595D when they have their sale this year.

A lot of your question will come down to what you consider "better". If you're into making parts for watches or clocks, then the machine you linked to would not be "better" than a Swiss or German machine that is specifically designed for that purpose. The converse is true if your hobby is rebuilding tractor engines! Bigger isn't always better, and the right hammer for the job isn't always a sledge hammer

It may seem like stating the obvious, but you first need to determine what you want to do with your new machine. A bigger machine will require more expensive tooling, and this can begin to get very expensive very quickly. Similarly, even though my machines are quite small, often they're not small enough for the work I often have to do, I currently need to drill some 0.3 - 0.5 mm restrictors, and I can assure you that is an exercise in frustration with even a small full-size machine.

One thing not mentioned about many Euro machines is they're also a horizontal, and can have more flexible table arrangements. Again, it will depend on the type of work you want to do.

Originally Posted by Pete F

A lot of your question will come down to what you consider "better". If you're into making parts for watches or clocks, then the machine you linked to would not be "better" than a Swiss or German machine that is specifically designed for that purpose. The converse is true if your hobby is rebuilding tractor engines! Bigger isn't always better, and the right hammer for the job isn't always a sledge hammer

It may seem like stating the obvious, but you first need to determine what you want to do with your new machine. A bigger machine will require more expensive tooling, and this can begin to get very expensive very quickly. Similarly, even though my machines are quite small, often they're not small enough for the work I often have to do, I currently need to drill some 0.3 - 0.5 mm restrictors, and I can assure you that is an exercise in frustration with even a small full-size machine.

One thing not mentioned about many Euro machines is they're also a horizontal, and can have more flexible table arrangements. Again, it will depend on the type of work you want to do.

Yeah - this.

It's why I have a baby H/V mill with all angle table for the small finicky stuff and at the other end a decent sized HBM that can also mill.

You have to size your machines to the work envelope you expect to work in. Then consider the materials - you can get away with a lot if you're milling aluminium or brass compared to the high nickel alloys and their like. Inconel is the pits IME whereas I like 316. I almost never machine aluminium or brass as salt water eats them fast.

A B/port type turret mill is a good all round machine for general work.

PDW

Originally Posted by simonl

I've done two such road trips now, one for my surface grinder and now one for the mill. My wife thinks I'm mad but she finds it amusing!

I am very tempted!
With regard to rigidity, I read this - " My RF-45 mill is every bit as rigid and then some as a much heavier Bridgeport." - Bob Warfield from cnczone.
Probably R8 taper and not NT40 though. Also, there are bridgeports and bridgeports from what I see. Smaller varieties at 1100kg with NT30 and much larger ones sporting NT40 tapers and extended travels. I would prefer to stick to around 1 tonne.

Originally Posted by Pete F

A lot of your question will come down to what you consider "better".
One thing not mentioned about many Euro machines is they're also a horizontal, and can have more flexible table arrangements. Again, it will depend on the type of work you want to do.

Thanks, yes I currently make 3d printers and would like to make smaller bench top mills in the future and would like a mill with roughly 400mm y travel, if not table area.
My other requirement is to not have to make multiple 0.5mm passed when making the simplest of parts, I'd like it to be able to handle deeper cuts than my current RF-45.

And yes, I'll have to get tooling all for one drawbar or deal with the hassle of changing it.

Originally Posted by j3dprints

I am very tempted!
With regard to rigidity, I read this - " My RF-45 mill is every bit as rigid and then some as a much heavier Bridgeport." - Bob Warfield from cnczone.

Dunno what he's been smoking, but it must be strong stuff.

Else the B/port he compared it to was truly shot.

PDW

I have no idea who Bob Warfield is, but I'll be polite and say "I find it difficult to believe" his statement. The Bridgy doesn't have a reputation as the most rigid machine ever made, but it's something like 3 times the weight of an RF-45! Comparing the two isn't just not comparing apples with apples, some might say the RF-45 isn't even a fruit! An RF-45 is probably a good entry level machine, but the best thing about it is that almost regardless what machine you buy to replace it, it would be better

If you're building 3D printers you should have a good understanding of CNC machines, so if I were you I'd probably see if I could stretch the budget to a small CNC mill. The work envelope you need is quite small and the materials nothing special (my 3D printer is acrylic for example). You could find yourself doing semi-production work, and a CNC mill will be about, oh, a thousand times more productive than a manual machine in that setting! For the price you were considering you may get into a Tormach 440 for example, and it will have the spindle speed to handle the types of cutters and material I can imagine you would use.

Bob is probably right.

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/images/Jordan07.JPG

It surprised me too, given how knowledgeable he seems. He's the writer of cnccookbook. I'd like to see some sort of test done now!

I'd like a large mill, I like manually working on things, although of course I like cnc too. Skyfire's are an interesting and perhaps superior alternative to Tormach but that's another thread....

Yes I wasn't necessarily advocating Tormach, more the point again of the right tool for the job.

Most of us here are doing work for ourselves plus maybe a bit on the side, and by default that pretty much narrows it down to onesies or short runs. However if somebody was looking at a machine for business semi-production use and has a CNC background I think it would be hard to look past a small CNC machine.

Just to clarify - so a fairly new used by a hobbyist Hafco BM22 type clone would be inferior to a taiwanese bridgeport clone you might find at a dealer? On average.
e.g. https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...t-Mill/376243/ vs https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/fair...40v/1164545308

Just my 2 cents worth, I had a HM-45 for 4 years until I recently picked up a HM-52G at the right price, the HM-45 weighs around 280 kgs vs HM-52G weighing nearly 1100 kgs the difference in rigidity is chalk and cheese.

No way a 45 size mill is as rigid as a BP clone. I got both of them sitting next to each other and they are chaulk and cheese. Don't get me wrong, as a first mill the 45 has served me well (after I took it apart and fixed all its little issues) and I have done some fun stuff on it but the Pacific is a monster sitting next to it.

Simon

Originally Posted by j3dprints

Just to clarify - so a fairly new used by a hobbyist Hafco BM22 type clone would be inferior to a taiwanese bridgeport clone you might find at a dealer? On average.
e.g. https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/a...t-Mill/376243/ vs https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/fair...40v/1164545308

You've moved one of the goalposts. You're no longer comparing to a HM-45, but are comparing similar machines.

I don't think there is really any "average" used machine, and you'd have to look at each and decide what problems each has (expect some problem, regardless of how minor). Personally I look as much at the background as pictures of the machine itself. If the workshop is a pig-stye that hasn't been looked after, the place is going out of business, and/or there are parts broken and missing, I personally don't think there will be any difference with how that machine has been treated. Conversely a home shop machine is likely to have had very minimal use, but the operator may not know what he/she is doing and have a major crash of some description. Anyone can walk in to a retailer and walk out with a machine of any size and no training is provided (incidentally it's the same with heavy earthmoving equipment these days, go figure!).

FWIW, going by the photos either of the machines you linked to looked like they would be good machines and I would be happy to own either. That doesn't of course mean they aren't actually complete lemons, but that's for the buyer to decide. Good luck with moving one of them in

I said harder to find than NT30 . Not hard to find .

Originally Posted by simonl

No way a 45 size mill is as rigid as a BP clone. I got both of them sitting next to each other and they are chaulk and cheese. Don't get me wrong, as a first mill the 45 has served me well (after I took it apart and fixed all its little issues) and I have done some fun stuff on it but the Pacific is a monster sitting next to it.

Simon

Yes same experience here .

Originally Posted by Pete F

If you're building 3D printers you should have a good understanding of CNC machines, so if I were you I'd probably see if I could stretch the budget to a small CNC mill. The work envelope you need is quite small and the materials nothing special (my 3D printer is acrylic for example). You could find yourself doing semi-production work, and a CNC mill will be about, oh, a thousand times more productive than a manual machine in that setting! For the price you were considering you may get into a Tormach 440 for example, and it will have the spindle speed to handle the types of cutters and material I can imagine you would use.

Agree. There's a good chance that if I buy another mill, it'll be a Tormach 770 or 1220. Making one or 2 of something on a manual mill is fine as long as there's not too many (preferably none) radii or other features requiring a rotary table or similar, with multiple setups.

Machining all my bronze port hole castings got real old real fast.

PDW