Thread: New lathe questions (yep)

Something to consider when moving a Grays auction win, is the conditions laid down by Grays for collecting your stuff. There is a good chance that anyone removing stuff will need to be inducted and qualified for the work to be done. They may have their own accredited rigging team etc. and if you are required to use them instead of a general carrier, it's likely to cost you more. Check with Grays to see what the go is. I prefer to block the machine with timbers to prevent it sliding, and to use tie downs to prevent it tipping. If you block the legs at floor level, and use tie downs to stop the machine tipping sideways, it should be ok. You should have your tie downs arranged so that they oppose one another in pairs preferably, in other words, one tie from the headstock ending around the bed, and pulling down to the LH anchor rail, and another tie opposing it pulling down to the RH anchor rail. If you do the same at the tailstock end, that machine will be pretty well held. If the tie downs also pull slightly to the front in the case of the front ties, and slightly to the rear in the case of the rear ties, even better as the machine also has some backup holding and is not relying solely on blocking the legs to prevent it sliding. DON'T just run a tie down over the bed from one side to the other, as the machine can roll within the strap, you should oppose the ties to prevent that. Of course the ties need to be up to the job, and they may need to be blocked out away from the lead-screw or feed rod, and if using chains, you need to protect the ways as well from being damaged.
If you plan on using an engine crane, it needs to be dead level for the lift, and my advice would be to lift it from the trailer or ute tray, just enough to clear, then drive the carrier away, then let the load down gently to floor level (or just above if you are able to mobile it around), but in order to move a suspended load with an engine crane, the path needs to be clear, dead level and solid enough not to have wheels bog down, - preferably concrete. A competent assistant would be most useful, and you need to talk the process through first, so each knows what the procedure will be. 750 kg is plenty enough to kill you if it goes really pear shaped, and even non fatal incidents could involve serious injury to you and any bystanders, not to mention machine damage. If you are unsure ask, lots of expertise on this site available for the asking.

Originally Posted by sacc51

It may not be 'elegant' but it is a good solution for small lathes that work well.

A definition of elegant is "pleasingly ingenious and simple". Sounds right to me.

Jordan

This should probably be put in a seperate thread but hey, may as well take this further off the rails. I have a pretty fancy euro lathe with a keyed leadscrew and i dont think its that bad an idea. The key does wear , especially if it isnt positively held into the worm, also the worm must be fully floating and this is actually quite complex.

The positive is that just one feed clutch is needed, the downside being any major crash takes out all your methods of feeding.

Originally Posted by caskwarrior

This should probably be put in a seperate thread but hey, may as well take this further off the rails. I have a pretty fancy euro lathe with a keyed leadscrew and i dont think its that bad an idea. The key does wear , especially if it isnt positively held into the worm, also the worm must be fully floating and this is actually quite complex.

The positive is that just one feed clutch is needed, the downside being any major crash takes out all your methods of feeding.

I don't think it's that far off the rails, when you consider that a misunderstanding of drive systems, like thinking all "one shaft" systems are the same, can affect a newcomer's buying decisions.
Comparing the apron parts lists for my Hercus model A and my Hafco AL960-B, the parts count is virtually the same.

With both my model A Hercus lathes, that have had moderate use over a few decades, apron wear has not been an issue. And, parts are easy to get anyway.
Check out Hare & Forbes' spare parts statements on any of their stuff. Doesn't sound like availability is exactly "off the shelf".

Jordan

If a keyed leadscrew is a 'kludge', I wonder what a leadscrew using halfnuts for both auto feed and threading would be called. Quite a few hobby lathes utilize this system.

j3dprints here is the grays lathe you have your eye on L244 | AL-1440 Centre Lathe | For Sale Sydney Brisbane Melbourne Perth | Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery online at machineryhouse.com.au on the top of the page you will see the text "THIS PRODUCT IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE. Click to see recommended item > L242D" L242D | AL-1000D Centre Lathe | For Sale Sydney Brisbane Melbourne Perth | Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery online at machineryhouse.com.au that link leads you to the new 3 phase equivalent of the AL-1440, and here is the link to that same lathe with a 2hp 240v single phase motor, L240D | AL-1000C Centre Lathe | For Sale Sydney Brisbane Melbourne Perth | Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery online at machineryhouse.com.au
In the unlikely event that you do need to put a single phase motor on the AL-1440 you can feel confident that it should perform as well as that newer single phase model.

shed

Thanks for the advice guys, auction ends tomorrow. Not sure how much I'm willing to go to but I'll make a commitment beforehand, factoring in markup GST etc.

My current best choice alternative lathe is a small lathe, either:
2506V 550x250 Optimum
Al-51G 500x210 Hafco - A bit smaller.

Are there any advantages to having both? Would the Optimum perhaps be better for smaller work, than, say, even the AL-1440?

Originally Posted by PDW

It's nothing of the sort. It's a cheap way to provide power feed drive via a keyway without using the leadscrew threads. It's a kludge.

Come on. If it was actually an elegant solution, do you think the other manufacturers would use it? Universally, they do not. The ones who did phased it out decades ago, generally before WW2.

For small hobbyist level lathes it's OK but it certainly isn't a good idea or a desirable design feature. Next thing you'll be telling us all that screwed spindle noses are a good design feature because Hercus also uses them. Come on. The Hercus *is* a pre-WW2 machine in design and features.

FWIW I have quite a library on machine tool history & development as a number of people who've visited my place can attest. If you really want to argue this stuff you'd better start quoting your sources because I can and if I get bored enough, I will. I suggest reading Oscar E Perrigo's book as a starting point.

PDW

I don't want to doubt your library, but I do want to point out that the AI Hembrug lathes are no small hobby machines, neither are they pre WW2.
It may not have been a big player on world scale, but they did make quite a lot of lathes, and quite a few of these are still in use. They were used quite a bit in tool rooms, but also on schools. Not places for badly designed or built machines. I recently spoke to a toolmaker who completely overhauled a dr1ls because it was much more cost-effective as buying a new lathe with comparable quality.
I have used a dr1s, and now own a dr1ls and regard them as seriously good machines.
You may have guessed my point: they have one leadscrew with a keyed drive for the autofeeds.

Peter

And if anyone is interested, I can post an exploded view of the way the feed system is implemented on the AI lathes. Hardly cheeply built or designed to make a few pennies more....

My point: when giving advice, be careful with generalisations. It might become a private opinion.
Peter

I used this to lift a 1000kg mill. The cross beam is 75x75x5mm, it just slides in the "A" supports. I attached 90x45 F17 timber for assurance but I think I dont need it.

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Originally Posted by j3dprints

Thanks for the advice guys, auction ends tomorrow. Not sure how much I'm willing to go to but I'll make a commitment beforehand, factoring in markup GST etc.

My current best choice alternative lathe is a small lathe, either:
2506V 550x250 Optimum
Al-51G 500x210 Hafco - A bit smaller.

Are there any advantages to having both? Would the Optimum perhaps be better for smaller work, than, say, even the AL-1440?

If you're going for two lathes, see if you can get one metric one imperial is my advice.

Jordan

The AL-250 and AL-51 are very similar as far as sizing goes. Spindle bores are also very close. If you are going to buy two I'd size them further apart. Having said that, I think two lathes is way over the top, and of course the money you'd save just buying the one would be better spent on tooling.

I think you probably need to think on the issue a little longer, sorry to say it, but your thinking is all over the place at the moment. Perhaps a sit down with pencil and paper and list what you are likely going to use a lathe for and size accordingly. Not much good having a lathe with a 20mm bore if you will be working with 50mm stock; similarly, a lathe with a 50mm spindle bore is going to be a total waste if your making watch parts.

Give it a rest for a bit and think on it. Hate to say it, but this forum isn't the best place in the world to ask your question, although forum members have the right attitude and will bend over backwards to help newbies, I think personal prejudices get in the way, I'm guilty in that regard as well.

Take a break and think on it, there are always plenty of lathes to be had!

Question - looking at the auctions for the AL-1440s, they're ending soon. The total cost is approaching that of a new AL-336 for some bids. The 1440's have a lot of features, but the one I'm buying one for is the 'superior Taiwanese build quality' that I assume translates to more accurate parts you can make. If this is my concern, would a 336 do me just as well considering the 1440s are second hand? Or are the Taiwanese as precise as the HAFCO add states - 'precision toolroom lathes'.

I am not looking at two initially, my question was does a smaller lathe do a better job at smaller things than a larger more expensive one? E.g. a fairly reputable brand like Optimum, who state guaranteed runouts and other specs on their lathes. Would it be better than a new 1440 or large lathe (for reasonably sized jobs).

Apart from accuracy, a better quality lathe can be expected to be more pleasant to use. Ergonomics are better.
It must be admitted though, that Asian lathes generally have nice dial markings. I wish my Hercus lathes had as clear to read dials, as on the cheapest Chinese machines.

You can do small jobs on a big lathe, but not the other way around.
Small jobs could be easier on a small lathe.

Something else to consider is managing a bigger machine: I have two very similar lathes - one 9 inch swing, the other 10 inch. Even though similar in size, the 10 inch has bigger, heavier chucks and other accessories. As I often move from one to the other, it's obvious the 9 inch is the nicer one to change chucks on. I can screw one on with one hand, unlike the 10 inch chucks.

Jordan

Originally Posted by j3dprints

I am not looking at two initially, my question was does a smaller lathe do a better job at smaller things than a larger more expensive one? E.g. a fairly reputable brand like Optimum, who state guaranteed runouts and other specs on their lathes. Would it be better than a new 1440 or large lathe (for reasonably sized jobs).

Firstly let me make clear I have no experience with the specific lathes you mentioned.
In my experience (as a hobbyist) I would say size of lathe and quality of work don't necessarily compare. Quite often the comparison is between a large used industrial machine and a small hobby lathe, in which case the larger lathe might produce better work because it is better built overall
I think initial runout on a new lathe only means just that. When comparing two new machines of comparable built quality that may give some information. Also initial runout does not guarantee it will stay that way in the long run. But other factors are important too when quality of work is considered, such as ( but not limited to) quality, type and size of bearings, location of bearings, rigidity of lathe (which quite often relates to mass but is a whole subject on its own), repeatability of settings, smoothness of running parts etc.
If you mainly make small parts, a quality toolroom lathe may be more appropriate than a larger lathe of similar built quality because of accessibility of the part you are working on etc. But it is a lot easier to make an incidental small part on a bigger lathe than the other way around. What is very different between small and large work is the tooling: think size of centres, collets v.s chuck, size of cutter, size of steady-rest etc.
To some extent this tooling can be fitted on a larger lathe an produce quite good work on smaller parts.
Unfortunately this information is not easily translated to general advice to which size lathe produces better work on small parts. Also a lot depends on the type of work you want to do. You can imagine making parts for clocks and making jewelry not necessarily need the same kind of "quality". Neither would you make clock parts on a lathe with 2 m between centres, regardless built quality.
Unfortunately experience in your own field of work is difficult to replace with advice from knowledge people who do different things on their lathes.

In my case I mainly use my lathe to make parts for smaller woodworking and metalworking machines I restore. Also tools and parts of tools for my work. I own a older used toolroom lathe with 750 mm between centres, centre height 133mm. Spindle bore 26 mm. It's weight is almost 1000 kg. It has large bearings and all bearings are standard so can easily be replaced once worn out. It has hardened ways with very little wear. I would not use it to make parts for clocks ( which I don't do anyway) because I think it's to big for that. I also would not try to work on a trailer axle.
But with the tooling I have I can quite easily work on small machine parts or largish machine axles and with quite good surface quality and size tolerances. Both are most surely limited by my experience and not by the capabilities of my lathe. When I need to turn axles larger than the spindle bore I usually have the length available to turn them between centres.
For me, this is quite a good lathe. But then again, I have never worked on go- carts an would not know if it would be suited for that.....

I hope this helps a little, good luck with your choice. What ever you choose, I am sure you are up for a fun and extensive learning experience.

Peter