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  1. #76
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    Ray, as I said from the get go, 3D printing is something that needs to be paired with CAD, with the former taking precedence. As mentioned, it's possible to have others print your design, but if you can only print and not design, you're stuck with what others have come up with.

    By by its very nature, 3D printing is rapid prototyping, which means the object at that stage is unique to you. Nobody is interested in the cover for your lathe gear you just designed and printed up, so it generally doesn't get put up at all, or if so, it will get buried in the noise. Put up a funky looking vase and it has utility to many people, so t could end up a popular upload. However behind the scenes here are millions of 3D objects getting printed off nobody ever hears about; it's just another tool earning it's keep.

    For this reason and I'd urge anyone considering going down this path, even if later, to get a very good grasp of 3D parametric CAD, as it's pretty much essential to run a machine. Even if you don't have a machine now, you may find it very useful when designing conventionally machined projects. I prefer to machine the parts off the drawings it provides, knowing everything will fit perfectly when assembled.

  2. #77
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    Some interesting predictions on where metal 3d printing is heading.

    What will 2017 mean for 3D printing with metals? - Manufacturers' Monthly

    Here is that A320 part I referred to earlier. https://starts-prize.aec.at/en/bionic-partition/

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    That's a bit disappointing. I was thinking that a 2m plastic crocodile I could leave floating in my driveway pond would provide a welcoming ambience for visitors....
    It's been done
    https://www.quicksales.com.au/ad/untitled/11481323

    Michael

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Yes! Now I wonder what happened to my daughters' Barbie dolls.....

    PDW

  5. #80
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    I spoke with one of the laser sintering printer manufacturers 18 months ago at a show and he said one of their customers saved 120 kg per airframe by 3D printing passenger tray table supports instead of conventionally machining them. It may not sound a lot in the grand scheme of a 500,000 kg aircraft takeoff weight, but is very significant in practice. On the longer routes the aircraft burns about a third of the additional weight in fuel to carry that weight, so in other words on every sector it would burn an extra 40 kg to carry that 120 kg weight penalty. Over the life of the aircraft the savings are massive.

    However while metal sintering is fascinating, most of this is beyond the domestic 3D printing situation and not something we will see soon in a home shop. Eventually yes, just not for a while. Nevertheless many of the same principles still apply. As I mentioned earlier, when 3D printing you're no longer constrained by the ability to manufacture, so the object can be a lot more organic with no penalty whatsoever. Furthermore, when I hand people my prints they often comment on how light they are. What many people don't realise is the prints are rarely printed as solid plastic and are instead shells with (typically) a honeycomb structure inside. It provides strength that approaches a solid model, yet at a fraction of the weight. This strength to weight is one of the reasons 3D printed parts are so popular with the quadcopter crowd.

    I can't find myself agreeing with the notion that the technology is a solution in search of a problem, it's well past that stage. Obviously to some people it's just a toy and will remain so with them and it's a hobby for them in itself. Instead I do think it involves a change in mindset and that will be easier for some people to make that change compared to others.

    For example, in the past I may have a rough idea of what I wanted to build or fabricate, so may (or may not) have drawn up a rough sketch and then just headed to the workshop to build it on the fly. When 3D printing something you obviously can't just wing it like that and the whole process becomes much more structured. I will always start with a rough sketch, then sit down at the computer and translate that sketch to CAD. By the time I've drawn up the model, the process is essentially complete and the actual manufacture (ie 3D printing) simply a formality. Once I'm holding the part in my hand I may decide I don't like one thing or another, or it's not ideal when offered up to the real world, so sometimes there's several versions. From there it either goes into service as a 3D part or the design is considered complete and I'll print off the drawings and make the parts in metal. The creativeness happens much earlier in the process instead of when standing at the machine as it often used to. The advantage however is because the CAD is parametric, it's very easy to make changes and have a new version. There's no doubt in my mind that much higher quality projects are produced as a result.

  6. #81
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    For example, in the past I may have a rough idea of what I wanted to build or fabricate, so may (or may not) have drawn up a rough sketch and then just headed to the workshop to build it on the fly. When 3D printing something you obviously can't just wing it like that and the whole process becomes much more structured. I will always start with a rough sketch, then sit down at the computer and translate that sketch to CAD. By the time I've drawn up the model, the process is essentially complete and the actual manufacture (ie 3D printing) simply a formality. Once I'm holding the part in my hand I may decide I don't like one thing or another, or it's not ideal when offered up to the real world, so sometimes there's several versions. From there it either goes into service as a 3D part or the design is considered complete and I'll print off the drawings and make the parts in metal. The creativeness happens much earlier in the process instead of when standing at the machine as it often used to. The advantage however is because the CAD is parametric, it's very easy to make changes and have a new version. There's no doubt in my mind that much higher quality projects are produced as a result.

    That's an argument for CAD/CAM in general, not 3D printing per se. The exact same arguments apply to all CAD/CAM, CNC milling or whatever. Do you have any examples of 3D printed parts you've made? What software?

    I don't need to own a laser cutter that can cut 10 mm stainless, because I know where there is one, a lot of small manufacturers get parts laser cut and weld or assemble them to produce product, I don't expect to ever own a laser sintering machine, but I'm pretty sure that within a few years I will be able to get parts 3D printed in titanium or aluminium or bronze or whatever. That means I can leverage that technology into products I design.

  7. #82
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    I'm not sure what software you're asking about Ray, there's a chain that starts from the CAD (Fusion 360) to the CAM (called a slicer in 3D printing), I have a number of them but normally use Simplify, then it finishes with the Firmware on the machine (Marlin).

    YES, absolutely, that's the point I'm trying to make to guys here who may be considering a 3D printer but are unsure about whether it's for them. You don't need to own your own printer in order to 3D print. There are many 3D printing services here in Australia, and you can already have models printed for you in virtually any metal, including silver and gold! There are services I guess a little like Uber is to transport, but with 3D printers. I'm told the quality can be a bit variable, from absolutely terrible to very good, but that's a function of the fact there's no central quality control. However there's also traditional printing services and the quality will be very good, albeit more expensive.

    That design/manufacturer process isn't unique to 3D printing, and sorry if I gave the impression it is. Indeed now I've got into the habit of working that way, I try to actually sit down and design in CAM even in instances where there's no intention to be ever print the part. I still knock plenty of stuff up on the fly, but for more serious builds I'll try to model it in CAD first. It sometimes feels like a bit of a waste of time, when I'd rather be getting my hands dirty in the workshop, but there's no doubt in my mind the time is well spent, and as mentioned I fee that process leads to a higher quality outcome.

    Anyway, the point if that was to try to say that someone may not need their own 3D printer (or as you say, laser cutter etc etc), but they definitely DO need to have a grasp of CAD. I think some people may not understand that requirement and a 3D printer without CAD will only ever be a novel toy.

    As for what I've personally printed, cripes that's a long list! I've put up the occasional thing here from time to time, but often they're things that are fulfilling a personal need in the workshop and wouldn't be of much interest to others. But to give you some ideas, they vary from lathe chuck spiders, many many jigs etc, and that's where I personally find the most value. I modelled and printed a 4 facet drill grinding jig (I was going to make it in steel but having used the plastic version decided I didn't like the design), gee it just goes on and on. Give me an example of something you're interested in and I'll tell you if I've ever printed anything like that? Oh, spare parts for a few things around the house that broke. Then obviously with 2 small kids, useless crap for them. I used to let them choose things on Thingiverse and we'd print them off together.

    One thing I saw today that's new is direct printing in metal using printers like this but using the plastic as a binder for the metal powder, and then sintering the model in an oven conventionally, burning off the plastic in the process. Now THAT is cool and I will try to find out more about that. Direct printing to metal is the Holy Grail, so if that becomes available from filament suppliers I think there will be a big interest.

    It sure is an amazing era we're living in! I guess some people will grab it by the horns, others are content to watch the show from the sidelines. Either way it's all good!

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    Furthermore, when I hand people my prints they often comment on how light they are. What many people don't realise is the prints are rarely printed as solid plastic and are instead shells with (typically) a honeycomb structure inside. It provides strength that approaches a solid model, yet at a fraction of the weight. This strength to weight is one of the reasons 3D printed parts are so popular with the quadcopter crowd.
    Yeah, it's one of the things that I find really fascinating about 3D printing. Honeycomb stuff is almost impossible to make any other way. There have been various attempts using open core honeycomb bonded to skins but not even close to what you can do with true 3D printing and absolute control of where the internal reinforcing goes - not to mention avoidance of glue bonds, different expansion rates of bonded materials et al.

    I've got sufficient power available to run a metal 3D printer but my need is too small and the prices too great.

    PDW

  9. #84
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    Thanks to all for the discussion on all the aspects of 3d printing, something I know nothing of. When I saw office works have a service where you can scan yourself in 3D and print out a mini-me, I thought that said it all about 3D printing but I can now see there's a lot more to it to come yet. I thought it quite funny you can scan yourself and not get it printed, which I presume is so you can have a youthful you printed out when you are old and wrinkly but printers are better. We are a funny lot.


    I love doing CAD and although I'm not a draftsman, I used cad daily from 96 to 2006 as an engineer. That was all autocad 2D from DOS versions onwards. I could draw things as quickly and accurately as anyone in the drawing office and knew all the advanced features most of them didn't know about. It's just because it all just all seemed so simple to me and even at school, I loved technical drawing which was just with pencil and rulers back then. Hardly anyone else was good at it. I started learning 3D parametric in 2001, because at the time I knew a mechanical engineer who ran a business making systems for waste management, and he knew I was quite good at 2D drafting and he couldn't find anyone who could do 3D stuff well at all. He asked me to learn solidworks and the plan was I would completely change career and do 3D designing/drafting. Unfortunately he went burst so it never happened but I put a lot of effort into learning 3D cad.

    I did the engine here in 2002 in solidworks as a means of teaching myself. There's about 16o hours in making that. Its sort of to scale and as accurate as I could make it without dismantling the engine to accurately measure. It's an assembly of parts which I photo rendered to give this photo(a whole different area in itself)

    eng3e.jpg
    At the time I posted on a solidworks forum and one of the guys worked for solidworks and he suggested I put this model in to a competition they were running as it was a bit unusual in those days to see a model so detailed. Even today it holds its own because I modelled a 1936 engine with hardly a straight line or plane on it. (I didn't have a legit version of SW so the completion was not for me)
    My uncle was an architect, and used bently miocrostation (2d) and while I was learning he wasn't impressed with my 3d stuff saying he could easily do it in 2D and there was no advantage. When he saw the engine, he agreed it couldn't be done in 2d and he was finally impressed. Because its an assembly of parts, the advantage is you can design a part while actually working in the assembly, so the oil line from the pump to the head for instance, can be designed in situ, making it very easy to make it fit in real life too. before cad, I'm sure a part like that would need to be made from a model by hand, and then drawings created from that.
    Its worth having a look here if anyone is interested in models people do in 3D cad nowadays. https://grabcad.com/library

    [QUOTE=Pete F;1916620]
    For this reason and I'd urge anyone considering going down this path, even if later, to get a very good grasp of 3D parametric CAD, as it's pretty much essential to run a machine. QUOTE]

    I had a point to all this bs above - I love cad, I make models in 3d for a hobby, I am certain I have a natural way of thinking that most people don't and to do something like the engine above where you can change the angle of the cylinders and have the whole thing rebuild itself to the new angle is quite difficult. Its a new dimension to technical drawing and like chess where you have to think way, way ahead. If I find it a challenge (I love it, its like a puzzle) but I'd like to know what you think about parametric cad. How do you find it yourself, do you find it easy? I think a lot of people will never be good at it no matter how much training, if they just don't have an aptitude for 3d. I think it must be like painting or similar. You can teach people techniques, but they will either be good at painting or not, you can't really change that. It's how difficult this aspect is which makes me think cad/cam/printing will be a lot further way until we get the replicator we all want in star trek. I don't think making single parts will drive printing far enough, we all want things that are assemblies and actually do something. This is all just opinion, I could be well wrong.

    Having said that, I've not been keeping up with solidworks new features and someone told me his son designed a bridge as an exercise, 1km long. he just made a single block and had SW design it to specifications he entered. It ate away at the block and left a design that looked like it was a skeleton made of bones, making it the strongest with least material. But that's a single part, once you get into assemblies, I suspect its too complex to program for a long time yet.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I've got sufficient power available to run a metal 3D printer but my need is too small and the prices too great. PDW
    Ha ha! Peter I can pretty much guarantee you, the power to run a direct laser sintering printer would be the least of your issues in ownership, indeed they run off a standard 15A power point! However the price is a case of "if you need to ask, you can't afford one". Count on somewhere around the half million dollar mark to have a Renishaw AM400 sitting in your workshop! But if you got in quick they would probably thrown in some powder and a bottle of argon to get you started on a print or two.

    This latest announcement by Markforged is certainly (or may be) very significant. They had a printer I saw a while back that was able to direct print carbon fibre and it was definitely in the "affordable" range if you had a need (still almost certainly beyond most of us though). Filaments are available now for our FFF printers that claim to be carbon fibre, and they are, but purely for looks, and they're nothing more than chopped up pieces of CF embedded in the plastic. Unfortunately the filament doesn't inherit any of the strength properties of true carbon fibre, and from what I've seen of them it's nothing more than a gimmick in my opinion. In contrast the Markforged carbon fibre printer lays down continuous strands of CF from a seperate spool and used nylon as the plastic. I don't know much about that type of thing, but the combination of nylon and CF strikes me as being a particularly good combination, and apparently the parts are incredibly strong. They've now come up with what they call "ADAM", quite possibly the most stupid acronym I've come across recently (mind you they have some good competition in that one), which stands for, wait for it, Atomic Diffusion Additive Manufacturing. Groan! In reality it has nothing to do with "atomic" anything, and is just a hokey way of saying they have a filament with metal powder in it. Ignoring just how spectacularly idiotic the term, the process is extremely cool, as it could be a way to get direct metal prints quite inexpensively. It was only released a week ago, so I don't know any more about it. I suspect it MAY be nothing better than the so called "carbon fibre" filament that actually wasn't worth poop structurally, but I have no idea yet. With a name like that I dare say the marketing department has had more than their fair share in the whole process, so only time will tell.

  11. #86
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    Something I don't think has been mentioned is the increasing sophistication of paramaterized models available on the internet.
    For those that don't know what this means it is perhaps best illustrated by an example.

    Say you want an instrument box that is 45 mm deep, 250 mm long and 114 mm wide and 4.5 mm thick and x% print density
    A parameterised box model will allow you to easily set these parameters to suit your exact requirements before you print, without knowing anything about drawing software.
    My son, Mike uses these models for enclosing many of his hacking devices, its far quicker to do this than starting from scratch.

    Another simple very practical example is this plastic tube coupling model.
    My Customized Parameterised tube coupling generator2 by smokyrat - Thingiverse
    In a lab situation this removes the need to keep a myriad of sizes in house as it's much easier (and quicker than ordering in) to print them.
    One of the techs at work used a paramaterized hinge model to make long narrow (piano hinge like) hinges for a piece of lab apparatus.

    The numbers of parameterized models available is rapidly increasing and becoming quite sophisticated and for many 3D users this is probably all they will need to know.
    Of course it's unlikely to replace CAD for more sophisticated shapes for the foreseeable future.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sossity View Post
    How do you find it yourself, do you find it easy?
    Umm, I'm not sure how to answer that. No I'm not very good at it, and no I don't think it comes naturally to me. But I guess like anything, if you bumble along long enough with something eventually you get to the point where stuff pops out and you can get the job done. As you know, but maybe for the benefit of others, when designing in 3D there's basically 2 ways you can go about it; either design natively in 3D and use solids to form a design, or design in 2D and extrude to a solid. I tend to do the latter, so will work a sketch and extrude it to a solid. From there I may punch out holes etc as solids, but tend to work in the sketch environment. Before I went to Fusion, I was using Rhino, and I really struggled with that. It was quite organic and solid modelling, so I didn't like it. It just didn't suit my brain.

    If you're used to SW you should definitely take a serious look at Fusion 360. It's not quite as powerful as SW, but gives it a serious run for its money. For the guys who are thinking of going down the CNC path the other very serious aspect of Fusion is it has HSMworks integrated in to it! Not some crippled dicky clone, but the full HSMWorks. I think a lot of people get carried away with the hardware side of things, but at the end of the day that's good for nothing more than bragging rights unless you have a decent CAM package and more importantly know how to run it. The best thing however is the price, as F360 is free for personal use or start-ups. So you get HSMWorks, a CAD package that's getting right up there close to SW, very good rendering, and FIA all for ... zero dollars! Oh, and it's by Autodesk, say no more! I think their business model is to eventually sell rendering and FIA tokens on their cloud, they may even be doing that now, I'm not sure as I'm not interested in either, but for the moment it's a cracking bargain of the century. Every indication says it will either be free or a token amount per year as a subscription, so it's not like committing to something that will suddenly be thousands of dollars to continue with. SW is definitely a great application, but I don't think many here could afford and justify a SW seat each year just for hobby or small shop use.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    I'm not sure what software you're asking about Ray, there's a chain that starts from the CAD (Fusion 360) to the CAM (called a slicer in 3D printing), I have a number of them but normally use Simplify, then it finishes with the Firmware on the machine (Marlin).
    I've looked at Fusion 360, I'm not totally comfortable with subscription software. Josh uses Solidworks, Matthew ( my oldest son ) uses Rhino/Grasshopper, I think I'll have another look at the CAM facilities availiable in Fusion 360.

    Although once you have the G code, there is often a bit of tweaking whatever the system.

    Ray

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    Yes, parametric drawing is one (well two) of those buzz words isn’t it. It’s everything already said, but what it excels at is you can control how the whole part is related to itself by setting parameters as you create it. So suppose you want to design a cube as a block within a part you are building up. You’re designing something from scratch so you take a stab at how big the cube is, but you know it needs to be a cube, no matter what else changes. So you set the cube by defining one edge length and set the parameter of the other edges to equal that one edge. All edges are equal so it has to be a cube. So now, if you need to make the cube bigger or smaller, you change just one dimension on that first edge and you have a bigger or smaller cube. If you want a pyramid on top of the cube because you are making a square rocket shape, you can relate the height of the pyramid to the length of the cube, so now when you make the cube bigger or smaller, the pyramid will keep proportion to it. If you are not sure it will remain a cube, maybe it will be a rectangle, so the two upright lengths of the cube you would set as n x first length. it goes on and on. By the time you’ve built yourself an engine and related everything to everything else, it can blow your mind and you can get very strange things happening when you change one dimension and it rebuilds itself. Hard to explain, but this is the really powerful bit and the main difference between old autocad3d and parametric modelling. I’ve never dealt with professional designers who use 3D cad so I don’t know how extensively they use this side of 3d cad drawing, but I feel sure it’s only a few drafstman that will be very good at this. In fact it really needs to be the designer who does his own drawing that could make this work usefully because otherwise the draftsman won’t know what are the important parameters to set to each other when he's building it. You need to know what you might change later. I have to be honest and say that when I did want to change the angle of the cylinders on my engine, the whole thing collapsed into a pile of errors, and I basically had to draw it again, but that’s how you learn what’s needed and how this works. It takes quite a long time to get experience on all that because it’s easy to put a ton of work into an assembly only to have it fail on one change. It can take longer to repair it than to start from scratch because its all related, and you lose the lot. If you’ve not been careful and let it do a lot of automatic relations, it can change shape when you go back to change just one dimension and the program will latchs onto other automatic relations and so it won’t come back by undoing what you have just done.

    Sorry I dragged this off topic even further but I thought it was slightly relevant because although industry will continue to make more powerful 3D printers to use with 3D cad assemblies, I wondered if mass market domestic 3D printers will remain a lot less powerful because of the complexity of creating something to print. I know I wouldn't just give away my files for that engine, so expect to pay people if you want to download a design to print. If you look carefully, all 1,000,000 files or whatever they have on that cad library are only for showing off and rendering, hardly anyone puts up their original files that you could print from. Maybe that means it will remain industry that prints useful things and less push for greatly improving mass market domestic printers?

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    I mentioned earlier in the thread that I have been running a 3d printed DRO extension arm. This is in my opinion a good use of 3d printing. It's very lightweight and has an internal honeycomb structure for strength which makes it surprisingly strong. I'm not sure I could break the long section by hand.

    I printed this out just off a rough measurement a few weeks earlier. I was going to print it and test fit, then print the production version. That said the rough one was perfect with the addition of a thin brass shim so I went with it.

    IMG_5410.jpg IMG_5411.jpg IMG_5415.jpg

    From the front..

    IMG_5417.jpg

    I needed a flex gasket for a ballscrew mount on RF. Given this I decided to spend 5 minutes in CAD and print a gasket in TPE (rubber flexible). It is a hard rubber that has quite a lot of flex. The first test was a little square. I'm still working on the settings to get it to bridge across open space, and also get the first layer going down properly. That said despite appearances it's really strong stuff. I can't separate the layers by hand. It's also quite flexible - it reminds me of the type of hard rubber on my machine leveling feet.

    IMG_5427.jpg IMG_5428.jpg IMG_5450.jpg

    After a flex "squeeze test":

    IMG_5454.jpg

    And the gasket..

    IMG_5457.jpg

    Obviously I'm still getting the settings dialed in for TPE. I see a lot of use for this product in the workshop when I get it printing nicely. Any type of rubber gasket, dust guards, vibration mounts and even leveling feed are things that spring to mind.

    When I get some more time I will upload a few photos of OctoPi and Simplify3D to add some visuals to the discussion around that side of things.

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