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9th Oct 2016, 08:15 PM #1Intermediate Member
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Genuine Crawford/Dickson or Bison Toolpost/Toolholders Choice.
In a situation where I can purchase either a Genuine Crawford/Dickson Toolpost/Toolholders or a Bison "Dickson" Toolpost/Toolholders. Which one would you choose?
Value wise the Bison is 80% that of the Crawford/Dickson. Both look to be great tool sets. The Crawford/Dickson is second hand from their original factory where people talk about the quality being the best and is still in great condition, and the Bison is brand new. The Bison is tempting for the price, but I guess it's a bit romantic perhaps leaning toward the original version, which I'm sure would still last a lifetime or more even though it's second hand.
Undecided help me out please!
...or perhaps I just flip a coin?
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9th Oct 2016, 09:58 PM #2Product designer retired
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Buy both, check them out in the flesh, then sell the one you don't want to keep
Ken
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10th Oct 2016, 07:41 AM #3Intermediate Member
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10th Oct 2016, 07:01 PM #4.
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BP,
It might be worthwhile to consider the availability of additional tool holders. If the Bison and the Dickson were identical, then eeny meeny might apply, if they differ I imagine second hand Dickson holders might be more readily and cheaply available than the Polish versions. I have a Swiss version of the Dickson. In the decade that I have owned it I have never seen additional holders on eBay.
BT
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10th Oct 2016, 07:21 PM #5Pink 10EE owner
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That is the thing about the dickson and clones. Tool holders are not cheap for the home enthusiast.
Compared to a Chinese Aloris clone.Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.
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10th Oct 2016, 07:30 PM #6Philomath in training
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I'd agree - if you have not got the money to buy the necessary tool holders, the Aloris style is so much easier to make yourself (and are also cheaper to buy).
I worked in a place that used the Dickson style holders and while they had some advantages over the Aloris style at the end of the day I wouldn't rate them as significantly better. I'd make the choice based on how easily I could get extra tool holders - that would be the defining issue for me.
Michael
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10th Oct 2016, 09:03 PM #7Most Valued Member
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10th Oct 2016, 10:11 PM #8Intermediate Member
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Thanks for the comments. I've taken the plunge with the Crawford to start with. I'm lucky that up front it included a heap of toolholders that will near see me out.
Nevertheless, what do you guys consider expensive? I personally don't consider 30-45 AUD for a quality "standard" Dickson (incl. Polish Bison actually) toolholder to be expensive. And these are UK made (granted they aren't made by "Crawford"). Particularly when they would most certainly take me more than a couple of hours to make plus materials. Prices this side of the world aren't great I'll admit, I don't like to say it but I barely bother looking at Australian sites these days for small tooling such as this.
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11th Oct 2016, 06:55 AM #9Philomath in training
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It's probably not the individual cost that I baulk at, but at the thought of paying that for 10, 20 or 30 holders. (I think the record here is someone who made 50 holders for their QCTP). It adds up and usually those prices don't include shipping. I would happily pay $40 (subject to cash flow) for something that makes machining easier or quicker but 10 or 20 times that starts pushing the boundaries. As I have machine tools so I can make things it is much more satisfying if I can make the item myself and save that money for things I can't produce.
Michael
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11th Oct 2016, 02:42 PM #10Intermediate Member
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Wow, 50 toolholders! I’m coming from the very small hobby workshop frame of mind where even 30 toolholders is enormous. For me, I’d never need anywhere near that amount as I never intend to production machine to that extent. Certainly if you needed a large amount then that would be expensive.
Completely agree, I’ve lost sight a bit in regard to this in recent times, seem to be spending so much time on these type of jobs and not on other “real” (lack of a better word) jobs. Yes very satisfying.
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11th Oct 2016, 02:48 PM #11Senior Member
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I'd expect the Bison to be better than the Dickson in durability terms. I discovered the hard way that Dickson don't temper their toolholders back far enough, preferring just to tell users to 'go easy'. I think the Poles, anyone else, would temper the holders to 45-50 RC where they wouldn't be so brittle. I'm no superman, snapped a clamping 'ledge' as easy as...
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15th Oct 2016, 10:25 AM #12Philomath in training
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Someone did it...
MAKING QC TOOL HOLDERS | Model Engineer
Michael
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15th Oct 2016, 06:51 PM #13Most Valued Member
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*I'VE* done it.
I didn't ever say it couldn't be done, I said it was a PITA to do (compared with the Aloris type holders).
IIRC I used a shaper, vertical mill & horizontal mill in the process. I could do the Aloris type on a vertical mill alone in 1/4 of the time and a lot less care & attention WRT tolerances.
PDW
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