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  1. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
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    6,540

    Default

    Steel on steel is generally not good unless there is plenty of lubrication around (without a barrier you may weld the two parts together). CI is better and can run on steel. Typically a bearing combination has one part harder than the other.
    One thing you may wish to consider are bearing plastics - a vendor like Dotmar can advise. These will typically be a thermoplastic with some form of additive in it. For light use probably reasonable and should be a lot cheaper than bronze.

    Michael

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,102

    Default

    What do you actually need, Greg. Give me some dimensions. I have quite a few bits of bronze bar collected over the years.....
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Michael, Joe, Thanks. I think I am almost over the shock now! ) I even spent an evening reseacrhing home furnaces ('flowerpots' and the like) to melt scrap at home. Might still be fun thing to done sometime. If I get the right guy at the counter at the local scrap metal merchants scrap can be darn cheap (if I get his brother he thinks I am paying for his retirement!).

    I've got everything I need thanks Joe. Very kind of you. Well almost everything - the piece I lobbed out was for the large pulley at the rear but it is good enough to run with as it is I think. Just some small play so it can remain as it.

    It sure pays to (dare I say) hoard this stuff doesn't it. I have about 300kg CI that I hope I will be useful one day. Who knows!

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    2,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by StrayAlien View Post

    Could the bushings be CI or (mild) steel? Can I save the bronze for where it is *really* needed? This old girl ain't going back into industrial hard labour anymore.

    All advice appreciated.

    Greg.
    If B&S put bronze there, it's because at the time they considered that bronze was needed. I'd replace like with like, or, if it's in a really slow moving place without much side loading, some of the UHMW plastics. Be aware that lots of them absorb water and can swell 10% or more, which does wonders for your shaft clearances. Some of the oil filled plastics are good for bushings - I've used a fair bit of them over the years.

    Of course you can use Vesconite - I do - but if you don't like the price of bronze, you're really not going to like the price of Vesconite.

    You got a free surface grinder that you knew needed very extensive restoration. I don't really think bitching about the cost of the small amount of bronze needed for bushings is a good thing to do.

    PDW

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Not bitching. Just banter. ) Lot of expense to go I know. Keeps me out of the pub. Sometimes. )

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Small update.

    I found (hopefully) all the woodruff keys I need. I say 'hopefully' because some of the keyways are a bit worn so difficult to judge exactly. A shout out goes to Southern Cross Bearings in Abbotsford, Melbourne who keep a stock of Champion imperial and metric woodruff keys as well as taper pins, roll pins etc. Nice one. Though, Bruce, if I ain't got everything I may still bug you. )

    I made a small diversion to fix some issues with the lathe that have been bugging me. Belt slip and a very rattly stepped-cone pulley. I installed a serpentine belt and also pulled the lathe spindle to shim the spindle thrust bearing clearance back into spec. Both fixed.

    I can say that I finally have the clutch assembly apart. No more taper pins left to remove!

    IMAG0524.jpg

    After a clean up this gear looks still looks bad. It took quite some effort to get the taper pin out - I drilled it from the large end and dremelled a section off the thin end to get past any mushrooming that may have happened. This one will have to be replaced. I have Ivan Laws book and it describes how to cut a bevel gear - but I reckon I'll have to read it another fives times and do some yoo-toobin'.

    IMAG0526.jpg

    Most things in the clutch look in pretty good order though. There is some advanced wear in the drive shaft bushing and drive shaft itself (0.004" over 2 inches) - there was so much play in the bushing that water could get in so the drive shaft has rusted. To be replaced as well I reckon.

    IMAG0527.jpgIMAG0528.jpg


    But all in all, pretty good. Things have freed up nicely and apart from the above no show-stopper issues to note so far.

    In other news, a 2hp 3ph motor is heading this way from SA compliments of forum member eskimo. It is being transported by another forum member who PM'd me so I'll not mention who, but a big thank you to both. Joe (jhovel) dropped his BS2 motor over last night -his converted unit no longer uses it, so a big thanks to Joe as well. I think that means, all going well, that eskimo's motor can replace the South Bend motor and bring her back to 3ph glory! )

    Honestly, the good will and generosity of the members of this forum is amazing. Very inspiring. Thank you.

    Greg.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    near Warragul, Victoria
    Posts
    3,718

    Default resurrection

    This rebuild job resembles the comeback of all time - of biblical resurrection proportions

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Thanks morrisman, a long long way to go yet.

    But .. I sure was glad that the clutch assembly finally came apart and is it repairable. It was rusted solid when I started on it.

    And .. there has to be a special word for the kind of elated delirium you experience when a stuck taper pin comes out. Or two even!

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default the joys of old lathes ...

    A small update. Time has been limited recently - I have been struck the with 2016 Melbourne flu and it has kicked me about which has meant for the last three weekends I have just needed to sleep. So not a great deal of activity on old Mrs Brown but a few things to show.

    Now, I'll prefix all here by saying I am a novice. Not ashamed of that. I know my own field but this is all new. I take a long time and make stuff-ups - sometimes many of them. Sometime so many I have to walk away for the day! But I am learning.

    Machining parts for the SG is actually the first real work I'll be doing on the recently 'restored' (relative term) 1941 South Bend 10L - and erm, actually the first real work I'll be doing on any lathe at all beyond a few simple things.

    (pic of lathe for reference)

    IMG_2998.jpg

    But ... first SG replacement part completed!

    IMAG0567.jpg

    Not a tough job, but a lot to be learned for a newb. 'turn a 5/8" cylinder between centers, mill a 1/8" keyway and drill a seat for a set screw at 90 degrees to the keyway'. Turning between centers 'without' turning a taper took quite some time. It seems the 10L tailstock quill and/or bore is pretty knackered - or inaccurate - it isn't the original.

    What should about a 0.0003" quill/bore clearance is actually at *least* 0.003" ... :

    IMAG0582.jpg


    And at full extension, this is the play pulling the un-clamped quill to one side:

    IMAG0578.jpg

    Which means with (max-ish) 0.014" play there no drill or center drill finds the center at all .. they find somewhere near it and wobble about on that!

    And tightening the clamp does this:

    IMAG0579.jpg


    The bed wear means, even despite best efforts, the 'cylinder' would be a mild offense to a mathematician. The wear seems greatest and inch or two out from the chuck and then decreases some to the chuck. So the last end bit is tapered regardless of what the tailstock does...

    The downside is I have a few shafts to turn for the SG. But it is what it is, so I'll figure how to make the best of it for now until I can make it better at some stage. That'll be another project. Kind of hard I guess to accurately bore a tailstock on a worn bed. But, this is why I got old machines .. to learn how to make them better! )

    On another note, amazingly, the compressed leather 'friction washers' survived being outside in the rain. I'm still not quite sure what this part does, but .. all in good time. )

    IMAG0541.jpg

    Greg.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention I did alignment procedures on the lathe for tailstock set over and also the two collar test.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default Life after the flu ...

    Update time.

    Last post I mentioned the flu that kicked me for three weeks. It came back and kicked me for a further two weeks. Nasty. Do *not* get the flu here this year! Geeez.

    It sapped me of energy and I turned into a Koala - slept a *lot* - especially at weekends. So not much done during that time. Better now, so back to looking after "Mrs Brown". )

    First major achievement was actually getting the rusted mess that was the spindle taper with disc attachment/holder apart.

    Presto!

    IMAG0583.jpg

    Honestly, I did not think that it would never come apart - go back and look at the photos of the spindle and you might agree. Heat/oil rest, heat/oil rest, heat/oil SMACK SMACK rest .... more heat oil.

    I milled (erm, butchered) the top of a large bolt to fit the (left-hand-thread) spindle nut grooves, and the other side to fit a socket for the "big gun" Makita impact wrench. *Man* I love that thing. After heating it to somewhere near the surface of the sun it finally relented. There were shouts of joy and balloons came out of the ceiling. I swear it.

    IMAG0586.jpg

    It's not that I was going to re-use the spindle, but having it apart means it is easier to measure - at least I have a reference, albeit in crap condition, but better than nothing.

    However, almost immediately afterwards I did ruin the 'wheel sleeve' trying to get the 'wheel sleeve nut' off:

    IMAG0584.jpg

    It was never going to be usable anyways, but getting things like this apart is a good challenge. After weeks of looking at this thing I kind of dissapointed myself that I never really considered how to hold it to get the nut off. Lessons learned. But like I said, it was never going to be useable:

    IMAG0585.jpg

    Reversing Lever Shaft:

    Another pretty unusable item but I thought I'd have a go at cleaning it up and machining it down to a cylinder again - that is, down far enough to get under the eccentric wear. If you look at the wear on the right-hand end of this you'll see it mainly on one side - the 'top'.

    IMAG0610.jpg

    The center drilled holes in each end were damaged but I cleaned them up as best I could.

    The exercise was pointless. I removed a lot of material to get under the wear ridge, and then realised the part is actually bent. A quick clean up of the front of the carriage to show the bushing reveals how the part was 'arcing' about:

    IMAG0589.jpg

    So, the shaft has to be re-made. I had a first go at it but am too embarrassed to show the results. As a beginner I do make quite some stuff ups. I got 3.5 meters of 20mm 12L14 from the guys at ABC Specialty Metals in Hallam (for $32 - pretty good) knowing that I'd be having more than a few goes at some parts.

    At any rate, to make the part and the 3 bushings for it I had to get the bushings out of the carriage. Not as easy as it sounds. Eg - this guy is pressed in, but there ain't no room to press it out. It has to be *pulled* out. Not so easy given where it is on a flat-ish 30+kg object.

    IMAG0595.jpg

    I fashioned up something for a slide hammer to 'reverse-thump' it out:

    IMAG0598.jpgIMAG0599.jpg

    Got there ... with bruised thumbs. )

    The unhappy family:

    IMAG0605.jpg

    Tool purchase:

    To help with getting some accurate bores in bushings I bought this guy. Moore and Wright. I have some other of their other items and they do have a very nice feel to them. Cheaper including free shipping from the UK than to buy here:

    IMAG0616.jpg

    btw, As an indication of the scale of the yet-to-come herculene challenge to make a spindle .. the test 'donut' that came with this tool is accurate to TWICE the required spindle-to-box clearance on Mrs Brown! Holy cr*p!

    More nasty wear and breakages, and possibly yet another reason why this girl was retired. This is the (hardened) rocker for the reversing mechanism. Note the bowed oval on the inner sides - they should run straight. Quite a lot of wear, but .. the screw-in taper pin is broken. Without that, there is no auto-anything mechanism. Which might explain why some parts of the clutch are in very good condition. Dunno.

    ... so might need to fashion up a new one of these too.

    IMAG0620.jpg

    As a side note, the parts manual shows it differently - there are many things like this. Keyways vs pins etc.

    IMAG0617.jpg

    The clutch has been finally been given its first deep clean. I say 'first' because there is so much crap all over this machine in oilways and so on that it seems no matter how much you scrub more black just keeps coming out of holes. Sometimes the oilways have been so clogged you don't even see them at first! I wish I had a very large sonic cleaner.

    However, despite all that these guys will work again just fine. All it needs it is ... a new drive shaft with offset taper holes to match some existing parts. Reaming and new (larger) pins for some existing holes, two new bushings and maybe two new bevel gears and a new transverse bar for reversing rocker to act on. ) But, I am happy. Everything has come up very well:

    IMAG0626.jpgIMAG0627.jpgIMAG0628.jpgIMAG0629.jpgIMAG0630.jpg

    Actually, the central shaft is *perfect*. An amazing fit, and with an oil film in there you'd think it was new.

    It is coming up to xmas and the lady and dogs and me are heading into the desert on a 10,000+ klm road trip that includes the Nullarbor and south west WA. So, I might not get much more time until the new year.

    Then it is time to starting machining some new shafts and basically all bushings, and two 1:48 taper pin d-bit reamers and a bunch of new pins. Another good challenge.

    All comments and advice welcome.

    Greg.

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

    Default

    I have some real imperial taper pin reamers somewhere if you need them.

    Michael

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Thanks Michael, appreciated.

    I am still holding on to my Michael G 'gear cutting' coupon and may still redeem it. )

    I have to make a few of the 'thread-top' taper pins so I'll need to do the correct taper set up for those. I'll give it a go to create the d bits and tapers and if I fail miserably I'll redeem the Michael G 'taper reamer' coupon. ).

    I have been stewing over how to set up the lathe taper attachment for such an angle - how to measure longitudinal (Z axis) accurately. I think the dbits may need to be longer than the travel of the compound (but I'll stew further on that) and I don't have a long travel indicator nor a DRO nor anything (yet) to hold a digital caliper on the lathe.

    But .. it occurred to me last night. Use the leadscrew! 1:48 ratio required. Set to 48tpi. Take up backlash, zero X axis dial indicator and turn the spindle 48 times - x travel will be 1". Actually, do it 96 times for 2" travel and better accuracy and then measure x travel. Or set to 96tpi and do same. Some quick 'will that be accurate?" spreadsheeting shows that even if I end up being (say) absurdly one half turn spindle out after 96 turns then the actual error is very very very small. So, unless I have got it wrong - that'll do me ... )

    Greg.

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default "Some assembly required"

    Sure seems like a while since I posted here last. Back from the road trip to WA camping. Some weeks either side for prep and 'unprep' and time has flown. Time to get back into the basket case.

    So, some new bushings, a bag of elbow grease and lightly-abrasive dremel buffs to smooth out shaft bores and the like and the clutch unit is back together:

    IMAG0947.jpgIMAG0938.jpgIMAG0939.jpgIMAG0944.jpg

    I am painting things as I go. The paint is not quite right .. it has come out a little lighter than most of the paint on the old girl. And a bit too glossy as well, but .. I have been back twice now to the shop to lessen the gloss, so it'll have to remain as is. It ain't a beauty contest. Though, most of the gloss you see in the pics above is oil.

    You may notice the taper pins not all the way in. I am putting things back together for a first test fitting of what has been done so far. Which is not a great deal. But a good start nevertheless. So, it may have to come apart again. Anyways, all the #2 taper pins I got seem just a tad too big. Darn!

    I was pretty concerned about this guy - I mean *look* at it. geeeez. But, rather than dwell on whether I should try to get/buy/steal/grow a new one, I just thought I give it a go and see how it feels. It seems to run okay - a lot smoother than I thought it would - so, a small amount of filing just to take off obvious pokey-out bits off and we'll play it by ear.

    IMAG0929.jpg

    I did managed to save the drive shaft - this is the main shaft into the clutch assembly.

    IMAG0921.jpgIMAG0923.jpg

    I had tried already but the trick was getting the center holes in either end restored and truly on center. My tailstock quill is so worn that even a center drill rolls around and does not find a good center.

    I got a new 5" chuck from Hare and Forbes. The one I have been using was just knackered. It may not be top-shelf, but compared to the old one, it is amazing. Larger bore and a full 10mm longer jaws for more grip.

    I also did the old trick of undersizing the backing plate register so by loosening the three chuck bolts I can get things smack on center in, like, seconds. Yes, you can do it with a four jaw - but I think my 4 jaw is from 1926 and should be buried. I had to do 30-40 thou undersize on the register - some things are so worn (and worn off-center) on this old grinder that I need that amount of adjustability to get some things to run true!

    Loosen the backplate nuts on the chuck, set up a micrometer on the workpiece, and a few spins and taps on the chuck and a few moments later it is running true. And more accurate than I could ever get the old 4 jaw to run. Very happy.

    So, I ground a 'high clearance angle' tool from the round HSS so I could set the compound at 30deg and machined new center holes after getting stuff running true:

    IMAG0920.jpg

    Just for laughs, here is play in the old drive shaft bushing:

    IMAG0912.jpg

    The 'plunger case' also got some love:

    IMAG0935.jpgIMAG0952.jpgIMAG0953.jpg

    .. and the 'spring plunger bushing did as well':

    IMAG0955.jpg

    I've some things to make to get stuff mounted. Like two of these:

    IMAG0931.jpg

    Also, some 19/64" 20tpi bolts as well. Try finding *those*!

    I'll need to make a couple of taper pins with a threaded ends on them .. so can't get away from those darn taper pins.

    Also ... I am trying to find the length of the belt that runs the table. Not had any luck with that one so far. When I find that out ... then I'll find where I can get a belt!

    Greg.
    Last edited by StrayAlien; 6th Feb 2017 at 11:00 PM. Reason: cr*p typing

  14. #89
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    5,942

    Default

    Greg, nice work so far. Probably the easiest way to get the belt length, would be to measure the shaft centres and the circumference of the pulleys, Centres X 2 + half the circumference of each pulley. Any bearing supply place should be able to supply a belt, even if they may have to order it in.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Hi Kryn, Thanks. If only it where that easy!

    This belt crosses over in the middle to flatten it out so that it fits better though a slot in the column casting. I think it likely also gives it more purchase on the pulleys. If worse comes to worse I could also get some belt and lace it up. Anybody you know in Oz that sells suitable flat belt?

    But, I'll give BSC a yell tomorrow. Thanks.

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