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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default rack pinion shaft

    This guy is bent and bowed and everything around it is worn almost to comical levels.

    Apart from the spindle (which you'll hear me say a lot) this area is in the poorest mechanical condition of pretty much everything.

    IMAG0491.jpgIMAG0488.jpg

    I suspect it has been bent for some time and run that way. Must have made an awful vibration or rythmic 'complaining' sound - it doesn't spin very fast I think.

    The gear looks pretty sad too. The teeth are thicker at one end. The hole is some random shape, and the brazed-in keys are now about 1/8" whereas the shaft keyway is 3/16".

    IMAG0477.jpgIMAG0480.jpgIMAG0483.jpgIMAG0484.jpg

    Using the teeth+2 / diameter formula I make it 10DP.

    I also suspect that the level of play on gear the that slides along it may have also damaged teeth on the 'intermediate rack gear' (pic from when gear still on carriage).

    IMAG0332.jpg

    I've not got the 'rack pinion shaft knob' and spring that goes on the end so I've yet not got an idea of why there are two machined flats on the shaft.

    IMAG0493.jpg


    The bushings will be easy - though I have no idea why they are a different lengths - the both fit into the same width casting. Oddly, the long one extends out the back and does even act as a spacer. Dunno. Also don't know why they'd have keyways on their outsides. They do not key into anything. Might not be original but I've seen no evidence of any other replacement or repaired parts.

    IMAG0344.jpgIMAG0495.jpg

    I could try to straighten the shaft on the press but that still leaves the wear - it is 0.050" smaller in the middle section. And oval. So if I could straighten it I could turn it down slightly. After all, all the bushings here need replacing so it can be a new diameter but 0.100" off is a fair hit on a shaft that is not that thick anyways (0.700").

    So given its all so crap I guess the best thing to do would be to replace it all, even the sliding gear.

    I'm not set up for gutting gears, nor for cutting woodruff slots. The boxes of parts had no woodruff keys anywhere so I guess they can be made also.

    So, while other things are being done lots of stuff here to get underway then! ... like work up some dividing facility (15 teeth).

    Greg.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    5,942

    Default

    Greg,
    MEW(244) has a starting article on making a gear cutting machine, and also a small dividing head. Whether it'll be of use to you I don't know?
    Champion used to do a kit of woodruf keys, might be easier to buy them
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,541

    Default

    Unless you have a SG in known good condition to check, I'd suggest that perhaps the bushes are different lengths because a replacement bush was bought off the shelf and no one bothered to shorten it.

    Michael

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    2,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by StrayAlien View Post
    The bushings will be easy - though I have no idea why they are a different lengths - the both fit into the same width casting. Oddly, the long one extends out the back and does even act as a spacer. Dunno. Also don't know why they'd have keyways on their outsides. They do not key into anything. Might not be original but I've seen no evidence of any other replacement or repaired parts.
    How would you know - it's a parts kit. The fact that it was disassembled and treated as it was tells me that the previous owner did *something* and it probably wasn't good.

    There's no way B&S would have shipped that machine with keyed bushings like that - they're recycled from some other bit of equipment.

    All you can do is use your common sense and whatever information you can get off of the net. If it doesn't make sense, you're likely looking at someone else's butchery.

    I found some interesting 'features' when I went through this exercise with a small cylindrical grinder - ended up making a bunch of parts, some of which I 'designed' to fit other, existing parts that I knew were correct.

    Keep in mind that you're not restoring a museum quality work of industrial art, you're trying to get a machine functional to whatever level of usability & accuracy you personally require.

    PDW

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Kryn, thanks. My first effort at dividing my be rather crude, but I'd love to build a dividing head. I reckon this one is cool: A Dividing Head Anyone Can Build | The Hobby-Machinist - The FRIENDLY Machinist Forum

    The champion woodruff key set is like $170 or something last time I sniffed about. Pretty tall!

    Michael/PDW - yep. I reckon those are just likely stuffed in there from off the shelf or something. And PDW, thanks, yes. It ain't a museum piece - I'll be happy if the darn thing works! ) If I were to bet money as to why it was disassembled I would say the owner decided to have a look at what was making all the crap noises due to bent shafts etc, got it apart - saw it was *really* crap, had troubles with a bunch of taper pins and parked in well in the 'too hard' basket.

    I'll go with the "if it doesn't make sense, it probably isn't original" thing. That *does* make sense. )

    Speaking of museums etc. As a side note I was browsing a book at the MSMEE exhibition this weekend about American machine history. It said B&S released their first grinder in 1883 and the No 2 was released in 1900. It had a pic of the 1900 version and looked pretty similar to this old lady. Same fundamental dimensions as well.

    Greg.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,541

    Default

    I would have thought most industrial fastener places could get woodruff keys for you and I think I even got one from a mower shop once.
    The dividing head that you have linked to is interesting but I'm in agreement with a lot of the posters there, I think the maker makes it look easy. I've also noticed in the US that they tend to have lots of useful stuff just sitting around. Some of those bits of material (if you could find them) would be costly, even second hand - our junk yards here in Oz don't seem to have the offcuts that we are told can be found in the US.

    Michael

  7. #67
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Vermont 3133 Victoria
    Posts
    248

    Default

    Hi Greg,
    I have some imperial woodruff keys, more than I will ever use, depending on sizes I may be able to help you out.
    Regards
    Bruce

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    2,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    I would have thought most industrial fastener places could get woodruff keys for you and I think I even got one from a mower shop once.
    The dividing head that you have linked to is interesting but I'm in agreement with a lot of the posters there, I think the maker makes it look easy. I've also noticed in the US that they tend to have lots of useful stuff just sitting around. Some of those bits of material (if you could find them) would be costly, even second hand - our junk yards here in Oz don't seem to have the offcuts that we are told can be found in the US.

    Michael
    I've got a whole kit of them I inherited from a friend. I never use them, happy to part with a couple. Assuming I can find where I put them that is.....

    Having said that given a choice I use a straight key if possible and to hell with what the original manufacturer did. Woodruff keys are far more of a PITA in my experience.

    WRT the dividing head sooner or later you'll need a decent one. Buy a BS-0 size & type, pay the money and move on with life. I've had mine for over 30 years, it's had a lot of use and still in perfect working order. Taiwanese manufacture. H&F sells one.

    The big expense is in just how many sets of involute cutters you end up with, but you only need to buy the sizes the job requires.

    PDW

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Bruce. Thanks. )

    I am feeling a bit like the 'scrounger' you see in old war films. ;-)

    Good tip re fastener suppliers though Michael. Thanks.

    Re stuff in the US. For sure - they have much more lying about it seems. Even what they say they get at their local 'hardware' store seems like it would come from a specialty provider here.

    On the dividing head. I'll not be having a go at that just now. Though I do have all the raw materials for it except worm and wheel - i even have two large bits of 1" angle plate that would do. A bit ambitious for me at this moment.

    But .. for interest sake, here is someone giving that design a go with their own due-to-materials-and-circumstance mods:

    A Dividing Head By Wayne | The Hobby-Machinist - The FRIENDLY Machinist Forum

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    288

    Default

    For the 10DP gears, do check just in case Boston Gear happen to have what you need in their range. See their PDF catalogue at http://www.altraliterature.com//-/me...p-1930-bg.ashx, and their website Bostongear.com your source for speed reducers, gears and power transmission components for industrial applications. You'd be surprised just how many variants they have - many hundreds. You can buy a lot of their range on Amazon, and they are relatively cheap.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Thanks Gunna. I forgot about those guys. I'll have a sniff. One of the bevel gears in the clutch is pretty rust-eaten so I'll have a scan for that too. Mind, I went there looking for a 127 gear for the SB lathe and they didn't have one but that might be a bit fringe-y.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
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    6,541

    Default

    Some time ago a 127 hole plate was made up so that members could make a 127t gear if they wished without having a universal dividing head. I think it is with Ewan (Ueee) at the moment.
    However, for smaller one off gears it is usually cheaper still to ask as several members cut gears. Normally the main cost is returning the favour to someone in the future ...

    Michael

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    71
    Posts
    2,713

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Some time ago a 127 hole plate was made up so that members could make a 127t gear if they wished without having a universal dividing head. I think it is with Ewan (Ueee) at the moment.
    However, for smaller one off gears it is usually cheaper still to ask as several members cut gears. Normally the main cost is returning the favour to someone in the future ...

    Michael
    I've got 10DP 14.5PA gear cutters. What I don't have is spare time. I'll lend the cutters to you though if you want to do the gear cutting. Probably take 3 months for me to remember to drop them at the PO though, given what I'm currently involved with.....

    PDW

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Far West Wimmera
    Age
    63
    Posts
    4,049

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by StrayAlien View Post
    Thanks Gunna. I forgot about those guys. I'll have a sniff. One of the bevel gears in the clutch is pretty rust-eaten so I'll have a scan for that too. Mind, I went there looking for a 127 gear for the SB lathe and they didn't have one but that might be a bit fringe-y.
    US company, 127 tooth gear? What would they use that for?

    Dean

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    843

    Default Bronze - over the counter rape ...

    Michael, that *is* good to know. I had been looking at my options for making a 127 and it was either make a plate .. somehow, or buy/borrow/steal/make/blackmail-for a universal head.

    Dean, that made me laugh out loud! ) Too true. As is happens I scanned the Boston catalogue and nothing off the shelf there for the selection of gears I checked out. Besides, I am keen on giving it a go myself.

    PDW, legend. Thanks. I'll see how I go. As a note ... better to be busy than not busy mate ....

    Today's ! moment came when I went to a well known Melbourne non-ferrous metals supplier to get some garden-variety gun metal bronze for bushing replacements. After a 25 minute episode where the bloke looks up things in folders and then writes stuff down on a pen and paper carbon copy invoice sheet and then blah de blah. The grand total for a few bits of bronze:

    $117!!! Holy snappin' assh*les batman!!

    After the 25 minute ordeal I figured I couldn't just cancel so I lobbed out one piece, put on my best 'poor' look and got away for $75. But still. geeeez!

    I think I'll keep this stuff to give to my grandchildren. So, here is the question. Does this old girl really *need* bronze bushings? I can see one original bushing in there that is steel (too much care making it to be a previous fix I think, its got a locating pin and the oil hole is the same bevel shape as the others in the castings).

    Apart from the shafts around the clutch not too much else runs at speed. I suspect the driven shaft into the clutch would go at a few hundred rpm - it is quite a reduced ratio from the motor. The belt pulleys run on balls bearings.

    Brass was about the same price actually.

    Could the bushings be CI or (mild) steel? Can I save the bronze for where it is *really* needed? This old girl ain't going back into industrial hard labour anymore.

    All advice appreciated.

    Greg.

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