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  1. #16
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    Aug 2015
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    Thanks morrisman ... nice reminder. As it happens ... I have that 'spindles' book. I know what my bedtime reading is. ) )

  2. #17
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    Thanks Joe, I spotted the LH thread. ) We'll see how we go tomorrow attempting to get it off.

    Re the spindle, agree. Might be able to get it close on the lathe and then either a) 'dremel' surface grind it to size - or have someone do it. But a bit too early yet to solve that one.

    Re a visit. Mate, that'd be excellent but I don't want to waste your time so I am still going through crap sorting stuff. If it comes to it, it may first be worthwhile making a day trip to see yours and your mate's BS2. I'll bring beers.

    I have been chewing over the parts list from vintagemachinery.org and there are many things left unanswered. Like the two different versions of non-manual 'front plate parts' and why one of them has parts for a 'shock absorber' - I see none of those shock absorber parts in my box boxes of crap. It is possible I have some parts from other machinery as well. Like what the hell is this?!:

    IMAG0223.jpgIMAG0225.jpgIMAG0226.jpg

    Looks like a spindle of some sort (it runs on bearings) .. with a friction drive ... and given the 90 degree turn in it I thought it might be some sort of adapter for horizontal grinding .. but I can't see how it could fit on this machine.

    And, not that important at the moment, but the parts list does not mention oilers like this at all ... and I think these used to be Gits oiler cups in a previous life ... maybe. They are pretty large - stuff knows where they might go. Yes - these poor guys died outside in an ice-cream container filled with rain water. RIP. Many bolts and washers suffered the same fate.

    IMAG0228.jpg

    I'm not sure if this is for the BS2. Note the position of the oiler cup giving an idea of what should be uppermost when mounted:

    IMAG0227.jpg

    I don't know what it is!

    But one step at a time.

    Off to read a spindle book.

    Greg.
    Last edited by StrayAlien; 30th Sep 2016 at 10:10 PM. Reason: typos

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    73
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    That is for sure a plain bearing spindle, Greg, but an earlier and completely different version than mine. I think it is beyond economical repair, unless you have a very good friend with a cylindrical grinder and impeccable skills with using it. It would also need metal added via spray welding, or a new one fabricated, and precision hand scraping skills to fit the spindle to the boxes. Shops that do spindle repair charge a LOT of money for their work, at least four or five times more than I have in my entire grinder project just to rebuild a typically worn spindle assembly, but not something in the condition yours is in. My suggestion is to find another plain bearing or ball bearing BS2 spindle, in good enough condition for a possible repair in your shop. That work alone is fussy enough to be pushing the limits for home shop work. Mine has passed the run-in testing phase, but has not yet been tested for producing accurate and pretty work. We'll see about that...

    I had very little surface grinder experience before taking on my project. It is a very good learning experience, always studying what the standards and the accepted shop practices are for making it correct, somewhat different than a lathe or a mill.

    Remember that converting it to a ball bearing spindle with integral motor will still require a modified drive system for running the table feeds. A BS2 ball bearing spindle with the same pulley drive will mount right on to your machine with no other modifications.

    The center slotted nut is LH thread, and so is the pulley screw thread. The outer flange that holds the wheel to the adapter can be left or right thread. The BS2 came with a left hand thread, for right hand rotation. A right hand threaded wheel adapter can be used in a pinch, but it needs to have the special washer that mounts behind the threaded flange and keys into the two notches in the adapter, or the wheel will definitely work loose, not a good thing. It is better (and correct) to use adapters with left hand flange threads.
    -Bob Korves

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    The items in the first three pictures are unknown to me. The machine has about 20 or more Gits oilers, and some Alemite fittings on the rear pulleys as well. The bracket in the bottom picture is for the idler pulley on the left side of the machine while looking at it from the rear, above the large pulley. There are three idler pulleys, all the same, with three different mounting shafts. The shaft that fits the bracket in your photo is a poorly designed installation, and I am repairing it now, with some much needed modification. I need to send you the remaining pages of the manual...

    Your original pictures showed parts of a different spindle, so I think you might have some extra parts off another machine mixed with the original ones. That might be a 'fun' puzzle...
    -Bob Korves

  5. #20
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    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Thanks Bob,

    Noted re LH vs RH.

    It sure is some bad news about the spindle isn't it. Why do people abuse these poor machines eh? Life would have been a lot easier if the previous owner had just left the parts inside, and inside the grinder body on the shelves would have been fine!

    Let's just pretend that a perfect spindle landed in my shop, the boxes would need to be scraped to fit the spindle? To get the fabled 0.0001" clearance? Sounds all more serious than 'make a new one and use a grinder on the lathe to get it to spec'. Darn.

    Re that last photos above. That is a tricky one. It *looks* like the idle pulley bracket, I thought that but I already have that installed at the back of the unit - this guy looks like it but has the oiler at 90 degrees to the BS one - so it is intended to be upright and not horizontal ... so, I figure it is a stray from some other poor abandoned machine. Like some other stuff in my boxes! STOP PRESS: I've just looked again .. it is the bracket for the *main* pulley back there! Bingo! The funny thing is .. neither appear in the parts list .. which is a worry.

    In other news, I have had a good day today removing rust and getting stuck assemblies apart. I've not done the clutch assembly and have had zero luck with the spindle nuts but am happy to report that things have loosened up on the clutch and there is movement. More on that soon.

    The butane torch got a good workout today to heat casting before 'gently tapping' things.

    So .. issues to report and some questions to ask. Apologies all in advance for the barrage!

    1. A bent 'rack pinion shaft' and a broken tooth on the 'table handwheel shaft gear'. I think the machine must have suffered a nasty crash and hence the disassembly and 'retirement'. It might be better make a new shaft. I've seen repairs on gears that might work here too. "studs and JB weld"?

    IMAG0301.jpgIMAG0290.jpg

    2. The cross feed lead screw is pitted in places the top thread is in pretty poor condition (but likey useable with some cleanup). I am open to opinions as to whether this lead screw can or should be used with that pitting.

    IMAG0271.jpgIMAG0274.jpg

    There is quite a lot of pitting about (like below) but thankfully, not everywhere. After getting some stuck assembles apart, just getting rid of the layer of crud and some fresh oil would see them sliding much better. I think some oil and 000 steel wool or gentle scotchbrite should see them useable again. Hopefully!

    IMAG0270.jpg

    3. This seems pretty stuck fast. It is the 'reversing lever' but I am not even sure what it does and how it is supposed to move but it sure ain't in great condition. The parts list calls the underside of it a 'spring' - not quite sure what to make of that:

    IMAG0280.jpgIMAG0281.jpgIMAG0283.jpg

    4. I'm not sure how to get the shaft out the left side of this guy. I gave it some 'taps' from the right and the sleeve look like it is coming out as well. But it didn't feel like it wanted to come out. The shaft is pretty loose in the sleeve and I have removed the little plunger assembly and there appears to be nothing else holding it in. It moves back and forth about 3/4".

    IMAG0303.jpgIMAG0302.jpg

    5.The last big assembly - getting the clutch apart. It looks like sometime in its life someone made an attempt to, got stuck at a taper pin, drilled and mangled things and, I think, hit the wrong end of the taper pin a lot. It was in there very very VERY stuck.

    IMAG0312.jpg

    The taper small end hole was enlarged but only big enough for my smallest punch and it bend with ease trying to get the pin out. No joy with heating it or anything. Given the mangling in the pic above and that a new taper pin would not fit there anyways, I felt (sort of) justified in drilling it though. That'll need fixing.

    IMAG0313.jpg

    But, it seems this is the place to start with getting it all apart. With it now off, can I tap that shaft out from that side?

    Thanks all in advance, I'll leave you with a final crap photo of the steady growing box of de-rusted and partly cleaned parts - all with a liberal coating of WD-40.

    IMAG0314.jpg

    I should be in a position tomorrow to start to an inventory of parts and what I might be missing ... thought I don't much that trust the parts list matches what I have ....

    Greg.

  6. #21
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    Sep 2016
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    1. The rack pinion shaft can be made. The gear can be repaired multiple ways, I prefer brazing to build it up, which requires experience to get it right, then reforming the tooth.

    2. The lead screw looks pretty bad, but I cannot see the flanks of the threads, which are the working portion. I have a friend, Randy Richard, who just made a video of doing that job for his surface grinder:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71s7bfOuSfM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5cYrHbVwkg

    3.The traversing lever changes the table feed from left to right or right to left, while it is moving. The handle does it manually, and you can flip it back and forth to grind a small length of work without using the table dogs. The other end contacts the table dogs that mount in the slot on the front of the table. It is pulled back manually to be able to go beyond the dogs manually to clear the work out from under the wheel.

    4. I did not have that apart, so I do not know how it is assembled. I did not find it in the manual (which I need to send you the balance of).

    5. The taper pin is no problem. You will need a taper pin reamer of a size that will clean up the holes, and a piece of taper pin of the appropriate size. Ream both holes at the same time, while they are assembled. The nice thing about taper pins is that they are a continuous taper from tiny to very large, with no specific lengths. The pins as purchased are typically about 4" long in the diameter you will need, and the pin sizes overlap in diameter. You make a tapered hole that just cleans it up, and cut a pin that is both too large and too small over its length. Cut the needed portion of pin, making sure to leave it long enough on the big end so there is still some sticking out of the hole after it is driven in, then dress the ends flush. Taper pins do not require heavy hammering, just tap them in firmly.

    You are making good progress, Greg, but will certainly need to find a donor machine or three...
    -Bob Korves
    p.s. You will probably soon be wishing I was your neighbor...SAM_1547.jpgSAM_1548.jpgSAM_1550.jpgSAM_1552.jpg

  7. #22
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    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    re neighbour - that made me laugh! ) I am a bit of an oddity in my parts I think having a garage full of old machines - a neighbour or two with a workshop would be welcome!

    Also, if I we're to find a donor machine it is highly likely it would be in better condition that this one!

    Thanks for the RR link - I am subscribed to his channel but haven't yet seem that one. And thanks for the pics of the reversing lever. From those pics I can understand what it does - and why it has a spring. Nice - thanks. The whole thing could be re-made if need be. I doubt the force of the spring matters.

    Regarding the manual - I did actually manage to fight my way through this PDF hosting web site referenced below to get at the raw PDFs - without becoming a 'premium subscriber' or being subject to malware. I hope.

    Brown & Sharpe No. 2 and 2B Surface Grinder manual.

    Your scans are better though. ) But I'll see if I can get them up to vintagemachinery.org.

    Re the clutch - I think there may be a trick or two in it, so, if I get time today I'll look further at it, but no rush there.

    Greg.

  8. #23
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    Sep 2016
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    Greg, is that the same manual that I sent you part of? If so, I won't go through the effort to scan and send it. If it is a different one, sent it to me(!), and I will send you the remainder of mine. If there is a page of mine that you need a higher resolution image of, let me know...
    -Bob Korves

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
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    59
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    Some collected thoughts -
    2. The bit of the thread that does the work are the flanks - if the top is pitted then it should not matter, provided that there are not sharp edges that will cut material out of the nut. Even a little bit of pitting on the flanks can be tolerated provided there are no sharp edges

    4. If you remove the key and nut, will it tap out from left to right?

    5. Two options - drill out the pin as far as the shaft from both sides. That should allow you to get the gear off and hopefully tap out the pin. The other option is if you dress off the bulged bit of pin you might be able to tap it out as per normal. Have you soaked it in penetrene or an ATF/Acetone mix to get some penetrating oil in there?

    Michael

  10. #25
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Bob, it looks pretty similar to your manual. I did look at a few pages and the content seems that same - whether they are precisely the same - not too sure.

    EDIT: I have submitted the files to vintage machinery.org. I'll post a link when/if they're approved.

    Michael, thanks.

    I've not got to checking out the pitting for sharp edges yet but will do and report. If I had a sacrificial acme nut I guess I could give it some gentle lapping to remove edges. But I don't have a sacrificial nut!

    Re (4). Nope. I suspect there may be a wear lip on the shaft. I may post elsewhere also to get some more info.

    Re (5). I drilled it out. The drill size was smaller than the large end of the pin - if you look in the photo above you can see light all the way through and the remnants of the taper pin as a small 'cup' sitting on the casting. Might not have been the best thing to do but got the result. I like the idea of 'drill from both ends'. In this case, I think someone had already had a go at drilling into the shaft. The gear now moves but is stuck on a lip I think so I'll get a gear puller on it. Should come off okay. That is the start to getting the clutch apart - but there are some mysteries. I'll post tomorrow re same if I get time.

    Greg.

    The day's report follows...
    Last edited by StrayAlien; 2nd Oct 2016 at 12:04 AM. Reason: removed bad links

  11. #26
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    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    I got a few hours on the BS2 today and mainly focused on getting rust off more stuff, making sure stuff comes apart, and the carriage. I wanted to see just how awful things were under that mud and grass, and spider eggs.

    First, a few random pictures of sorry looking neglected stuff before going into the bath:

    IMAG0155.jpgIMAG0170.jpgIMAG0176.jpgIMAG0192.jpgIMAG0195.jpgIMAG0230.jpgIMAG0231.jpgIMAG0241.jpgIMAG0315.jpgIMAG0316.jpgIMAG0317.jpgIMAG0318.jpgIMAG0319.jpgIMAG0322.jpg

    The idler gear from the rear 'belt tightener frame' took some getting out. Gotta love that oil:

    IMAG0329.jpg

    I started cleaning the carriage today. Pretty miserable. Here is the sad story. Note the not-quite-broken gear teeth. More evidence of crashing I guess.

    IMAG0330.jpgIMAG0331.jpgIMAG0332.jpgIMAG0333.jpgIMAG0335.jpg

    Likely I'll hit a picture limit here so continued in next post ...

  12. #27
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    ..now I don't know if these bushings are supposed to be like this .. but I doubt it ... I suspect the machine spend some time running with that bend shaft ... I'm pretty sure it goes through here. I think. Maybe.

    IMAG0340.jpgIMAG0350.jpg

    If they are supposed to be round then these really are in awful condition!!

    The gear and cross feed nut didn't put up too much resistance.

    IMAG0343.jpgIMAG0346.jpg

    I didn't get it all done today but enough to show. I got into it with a wire brush on an angle grinder - before you all berate me over that wait a moment .

    IMAG0347.jpgIMAG0348.jpgIMAG0349.jpg

    Note the flatness and shine on the ways - they have not been eaten by rust - some pitting just on one place. But, now, I find this really very curious. The rust was coming off the ways in the same kind of way that paint comes off. There is a definite 'layer' of rust on the ways that was separate to the ways - like paint is on top of the metal. You can see it here in this substandard photo:

    IMAG0351.jpg

    I have cleaned the 'layer' off the front bit to expose the way underneath. The layer is not the way rusting away into oblivion - it is like it has grown on top of it.

    The ways still have wear marks going down them. Alas - no flaking! ) The wire brush seems to be removing the layer and, the wire being much softer than the cast iron, leaves the ways alone. It is working quite well and I am very surprised.

    I have a theory that the cast iron must has soaked oil into it pores and the rust has effectively grown on top of that - so a small amount of oil has separated the rust from the ways. This has not happened in any other rust on the machine.

    Don't be mistaken, the rust is still pretty darn tenacious and doesn't just scrape off - but some persistence with the wire wheel sees it removed and leaves the ways as-is.

    Nice. )

    I think tomorrow will confirm that it is all very worn - including the v ways on the body (the 'bed?). Might not be as bad a Joe's "v way tops eating into body" worn, but likely not very happy.

    Greg.

  13. #28
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    Sep 2016
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    Those pics make a grown man want to cry... I do not have those two small covers/doors on my machine. I wonder where they fit?
    -Bob Korves

  14. #29
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    Those ways may be usable -- after considerable scraping in.

    There are a lot of damaged or worn out parts in the pics, beyond the rust...
    -Bob Korves

  15. #30
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Yep. All pretty sad eh. There is only one small door in the pics - the red one is just the flipside. I believe it is what the '36 parts list describes as an 'oil compartment cover'. Though I notice the scans of the '46 manual as you sent show a panel there (not a door), but do not give it a part number.

    I went through the pages in the '36 parts list that I believe are for this machine and, as far as I can tell, I think I may just be missing the stuff around the 'Rack Pinion Shaft Knob' (whatever that does, but I believe it is referenced as the 'knurled knob'). And maybe a bushing and washer or two and many bolts. The parts list describes a 'shock absorber' that I see no evidence of at all. Mind, there is a page in the parts list showing the 'bed plate front parts' assembly without a shock absorber .. so I am hoping that is what I have! )

    Greg.
    Last edited by StrayAlien; 2nd Oct 2016 at 10:32 AM. Reason: typo

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