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  1. #226
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    Thanks shed. As a poster said in an early post on this thread. Grinder spindles are not complicated, just fussy. The real shame is there is no way to know if you've done it all right until you grind stuff.

    Maybe it might not be like new, but (hopefully) it'll be better than when it died and hit the bins in the weather.

    ... hopefully...

  2. #227
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    Greg, boy I'm envious of your patience to get the finishes you have achieved!
    I must make a date to come and visit again and see the old girl in person....
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  3. #228
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    G'day Joe,

    Re patience. Someone once said that working on old machines teaches you that. Personally, I reckon I must be nuts.

    And re the finish - don't be fooled! I have a fine-cut file by the lathe and a roll of emery. The finishes on the bearing boxes above wasn't too bad to begin with but a file and emery smoothed them so I could blue them against the head to check the taper.

    Btw, the green belt you gave me looks like it is not quite long enough. I'm not sure why as it came off another BS2, but the manual has some different lengths for 50/60hz and different table speeds so it could be something with that.

    Re checking the old girl out - anytime mate - lemme know and I'll make sure there are some cold beers about.

  4. #229
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    That's some amazing work there. You must be pretty happy with the results.

    Simon
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  5. #230
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Thanks Simon, though the trouble is, it ain't actually a result until it's in and working like a grinder should. I sure am happy though to have got this far on those items without my usual severe stuff ups. They really have taken quite an effort. It makes me wonder how long they would have taken to make at the factory originally.

  6. #231
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    Aug 2011
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    Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrayAlien View Post
    Thanks Simon, though the trouble is, it ain't actually a result until it's in and working like a grinder should. I sure am happy though to have got this far on those items without my usual severe stuff ups. They really have taken quite an effort. It makes me wonder how long they would have taken to make at the factory originally.
    Small steps, one after another and next thing you know you will have a beautiful grinder sitting in front of you. You will also forever be chuffed with the effort you put in and the skill required to get it running. Possibly no-one else will ever really appreciate it but you will!

    Back in the day there was no cnc so I assume it was the job of one person to make those bearing carriers. They probably had the process and tooling down pat but it would still have taken a considerable amount of time.

    Simon
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  7. #232
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Thanks Simon, these projects can be pretty tough. Lots of time and angst - but I do agree that the 'post enjoyment' is a special thing. I spent about a year on the 1941 South Bend and haven't regretted it at all. I get a great deal of enjoyment using it, but I sure do get lot of enjoyment just looking at the old girl. You know, beer in hand, wander in the workshop - gaze around. Lovely.

    Before/after pics here: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ml#post2619153

    With this old girl I am more than a little concerned about, I guess, the 'fussiness' of such a precise thing. I know the spindle isn't perfect, I know the alignment is not perfect. I also now know that the tapered bores in the head are *not* in alignment with the threads and flat surfaces at each end of the head like you would expect. So the rear bearing is offset ever so slightly from the front - rear bearing clearance is a bit wonky to cater. Plus, rotating by hand I can feel a small tight spot. You know ... 'stuff'.

    But, I have no way to know if the bearings it left the factory with were made to cater for the same misalignment - or anything. Who knows. So ... my only choice is to try what I have and see if it sucks ... or not.

    To that end ..... time to get it in and see if it sucks .... or not ...

    So spindle in with lock rings etc.

    IMG_20190106_143912.jpgIMG_20190106_144741.jpg

    It'll not run without a belt. I got a 3 ply rubberised 'transmission belt' from beltech in VIC:

    IMG_20190105_170106.jpg

    Not knowing what the length should be I did a fit up and got a by-thumb length and then did the world's worse clip lacing effort. I am only game to show the good side - the other side is utterly woeful. But .... it is straight, and that is all I am interested in right now. And 'no', it came in no other colour ...


    IMG_20190111_192837.jpg

    Wound in:


    IMG_20190111_193812.jpg

    And with cheap-as-chips ebay VFD running at 10hz for 10mins and then 20hz for 20 mins ... it didn't explode. It barely got warm. I was hoping for next-to-zero runout - but a quick measurement showed maybe 0.02mm or so.

    IMG_20190111_195919.jpg

    I haven't quite figured out what the oil cup arrangement is as yet but just gave it liberal amounts of kero down the oil holes.

    And yes - the belt metal lace clips running over 6 pulleys every lap will drive me totally *BONKERS* but, that is something else to solve.

    I'll run it in slowly this weekend. I can't get a wheel on as yet as I need to male a L/H nut to keep the wheel hub on .. and I need to make a puller to get the wheel hub off as well. Those will be next.

    Greg.

    EDIT:

    1. petip: yes .. that is the next project sitting behind it - the Hercus saw - lovely thing it is. Apols, this project has taken a *little* longer than expected. )
    2. And 'no' after the spindle is sorted (if/when it gets sorted), this is not the end of the project. Table mechanisms not working as yet. Other stuff too .... darn!!!

  8. #233
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Provided you don't need to remove the belt too often one way to get a much quieter belt join is to use a finger jointed connection and then hand sew the join using something like a mono filament.

    Here's one I did a few years ago using a 4 mm thick raw cowhide. This was for a 100 mm wide strop belt - the thread is dental floss, holes were drilled with a 1mm bit - The cut edges are all angled which is why the thread appears to be right on the edge of the join.
    Strop_Stitch.jpg

  9. #234
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Bob, that is a work of art!

    As it happens, studying the slow running machine closer, I think the 3 ply belt is too thick for the top 2" (spindle) pulley. Well, certainly with the metal clip on it. The belt counterweight at the rear visibility lifts as the join goes over the spindle pulley.

    Jhovel gave me the belt from his machine and I also have a belt that was lying in the grass near the machine and they're similar lengths but... a fair bit shorter than even the shortest belt length mentioned in the manual.

    However, I'll give Joe's a go I reckon. It is more flexible.ut it is endless which is a real pain to get on and off. A real pain.

    Re the join, if the belt test bears no fruit I'll be looking to lace the 3 ply somehow and see how that goes with no clip. Thanks for the example. Very nice.

  10. #235
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    A mixed week on old Mrs Brown.

    The shorter (endless) belt runs quiet as a mouse. Just lovely and smooth. The trouble is it limits the working envelope a bit too much. With the basket-case mag chuck and a wheel mounted (but not locked on - I can't do that bit yet) here it is at maximum belt stretch - it gives just a little under 4".

    IMG_20190113_101157.jpg

    So, back to the 3ply. I jimmied up a wooden thingo to keep the belt straight and drilled some holes to attempt a lace - I milled a slot lengthways into the wood. Last time I mill wood on the BP.

    IMG_20190113_110455.jpg

    First attempt was dental floss. Fail.

    IMG_20190113_134223.jpg

    Next attempt was with upholstery thread with about 5-7 loops. Seems okay. The upholstery thread is pretty strong. I did get some 1mm 'whipper snipper' line but it was too thick even though it was the thinnest they had.

    IMG_20190113_171547.jpgIMG_20190113_171554.jpg

    Not as pretty as Bob's but it works quite well. It makes a small noise at it goes over each pulley but nothing like the metal clips - and no visible lifting of the rear counterweight (or whatever it is called) as the join goes over the spindle pulley. So - if it lasts, might be good. I get the full working height on the machine as well.

    I ran it at increasing Hz over the course of an hour, giving it copious amount of oil (kero) to help flush it. I ran it at the full 50hz for about 10 minutes with the spindle getting no warmer than about 33 degrees (c). All seemed good ..... then the motor struggled for a moment, and before I could turn it off ... the spindle seized ...

    ... solid ...

    Ouch ...

    Seems a bit of grit had entered the top oil hole. Some thumping saw the spindle out of the bearing box but there was some damage done to both spindle and bearing box. I stewed on it for a week - mad as hell, then yesterday cleaned it up. I burr-filed off the high spots on the spindle and did re a quick re-lap with 0.25micon paste to smooth it out. Also gave the bearing box a quick re-lap to lose the high spots. Maybe a small increase in clearance as a result, but I think we're still okay.

    Apologies ... no photos, I was too cheesed off at it all!

    As a note, I went with grade B engineering felt but it still seemed as gritty as grade A so I had to wash it a lot in kero to minimise that.

    IMG_20190121_181650.jpg

    I got it all back together tonight and over 40 minutes or so kept increasing the speed. Eventually it ran at the full 50hz for 8 minutes with no issues and still at low 30s temp. I would have thought it'd be warmer - but that is what it is. I am guessing the oil is so thin it creates little friction even with a 0.0001" or so clearance.

    IMG_20190121_192815.jpg

    Actually, the oil is so thin it tends to run though fairly easily - which I will also call a good thing.

    So .. good progress after a bit of a disaster.

    Greg.

  11. #236
    Join Date
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    Greg,
    I'm not convinced using kero as a lubricant is a good idea. It is a solvent and as such removes any lubricant you might have in there.
    I have some SAE2.5, which is liquid like kero, but it smells like oil and feels like a lubricant on your fingers.
    R.C. gave it to when I got my B&S, but it is too thin for my bearings. I use SAE5 successfully.
    You are welcome o the couple of litres I have left if you want to try it.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  12. #237
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Melbourne
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    Mate, I was devastated when I read the first half of your post. All that work! But I'm so glad you managed to bring it back with some lapping etc. Wow, could have been alot worse.

    Continue on. I'm enjoying your thread!

    Simon
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  13. #238
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Simon - thanks. I was pretty browned off at it all for a few days. Hopefully ... no more bad moments. Fingers crossed!

    Thanks Joe. Oddly, the oiling instructions on some of these early models actually *specifies* kerosene as the lubricant - not an equivalent - it says it by name. As it happens I can't find any damn pics about but I have seen it. The oiling plate reads something like "3 parts kerosene to one part 'white mineral oil'". I know there were different spindles so it is difficult to know. But, from what I gather from the manual - which says "32 seconds SUV at 100F" - the only stuff like that is diesel, kero and mobil velocite #3 - which is ISO 2 (yes ... 2). I think SAE 2.5 would about about ISO 10? I am not an expert. That would make it a velocite #6?

    The kero seems to work quite well. It is an oil, albeit a very very light one. Like I said - not an expert, but I think it may be considered a solvent because heavier oils dissolve into it. Maybe that defines a solvent! Dunno!

    I do have a concern about the kero and whether it is a rust inhibitor or the opposite. Sulphur may be a culprit to cause rust - though it seems the UN 1223 spec sulphur we get at bunnings is the (very) low sulphur variety they call type 1-K elsewhere. Also the smell. Makes the entire garage smell of kero - always.

    Re the offer of oil - thank you. I'll see how I go with the kero and if it proves too thin (or too stinky) then maybe the sae 2.5 is worth a shot. Thank you.

  14. #239
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Old oils and fuels are not modern oils and fuels. Kero used to be two types, lighting and power. Diesel used to be yellow due to the lubricating sulphur in it. Now it is clear.

    The J&S 540 manual says for plain bearing grinders use oil diluted with kero. I know some grinder stipulate kero though, Elb Schiff was a manufacturer that said to use kero in their machines.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  15. #240
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    Aug 2015
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    Thanks RC. I had read about the Elb machines. As a lubricant kero does seem to work really quite well. As an experiment I fitted the bearing box to the spindle with ISO 22 oil (that I use for BP spindle bearings) and it is just waaaay to thick.

    I am surprised at how cool it runs. I would have thought 10mins at around 3200rpm would heat things up but nope. Makes me think something is wrong!

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