Thread: Newbie wanting to buy first lathe

G'day,

Firstly I would like to apologise if this post is in the wrong place. I'm new here and still learning my way around the forum. Also, most threads relating to buying lathes seem to be a few years old, so I thought I would start a new thread.

I would like to buy a lathe so that I can learn some new skills and work on some yet to be determined projects. I don't have any machining experience, however I am a fairly quick learner. I am an aircraft engineer and one of the guys I work with is a machinist by trade and has extensive experience machining aircraft parts. He will be able to help me as I learn.

I don't really have any specific projects I want to complete other than to learn to make various parts just because I can. Would comes to mind right now is that I would like to build a radio controlled off road buggy from scratch, manufacturing as much as possible myself. I also like to work on my 4wd and it would be handy to be able to manufacture various bits and pieces for the car or camper.

I have read on other posts where people ask for lathe buying advice that many replies suggest to buy a good second hand lathe rather than a new Chinese lathe. I am a little hesitant to go down the second hand path due to my lack of knowledge on how to pick a "good" lathe.

I have been looking at some of the Chinese lathes and they mostly look very similar to each other with maybe a different paint colour or some other minor difference between them. The Hafco AL-320g seems like more than enough lathe for me, and I hear the after sales support from Hare and Forbes is quite good. I'm assuming this lathe is Chinese and is also at the top end of my budget.

The Hercus-260 seems to have a reasonably strong following, but I don't know what features to look for. (By the way, I have 3phase power to my house, I would just need to add a power point in my garage if I was to get a 3-phase machine)

Sorry for the long post, I'm not even sure what questions I should be asking. I'll try and summarise as best I can:

• Budget $3500 max including basic set of tools to get me started
• Lathe for hobby use only, no specific projects in mind. Just want to learn new skills at this stage
• New lathe from reputable dealer or take risk on buying second hand? (I live in Sydney)
• I would like a lathe that I would not outgrow too quickly
• Is a 38mm spindle bore (like on the AL-320g) a big advantage over a smaller machine with say a 26mm spindle bore? Or am I better off buying a smaller machine and have more money left over for tooling?

I'm sure lots more questions will come to me later on, but I'll leave it at that for now (this post is already quite long).

I am happy to listen to any advice you are willing to offer.

Thanks, John.

Welcome to the forum, John. To save space I'll answer where I can, I'm a reasonably newbie also.

Originally Posted by jhv001

G'day,

Firstly I would like to apologise if this post is in the wrong place. I'm new here and still learning my way around the forum. Also, most threads relating to buying lathes seem to be a few years old, so I thought I would start a new thread.


I would like to buy a lathe so that I can learn some new skills and work on some yet to be determined projects. I don't have any machining experience, however I am a fairly quick learner. I am an aircraft engineer and one of the guys I work with is a machinist by trade and has extensive experience machining aircraft parts. He will be able to help me as I learn.
When you find a Lathe that you like, take your machinist friend with you for advise, give him a carton of his fav amber fluid, after you've got it, it'll be money well spent. Some of the NEW lathes are a problem waiting to happen, casting sand inside with oil running around, read this on one of the threads on here. So be prepared to do an oil change etc. if necessary. The lathe would also need setting up properly, wash down cleaning resetting gibs etc., this where the carton of amber fluid comes in again. He should be able to go through it with you, you strip it down and clean with him watching and correcting where necessary. You'll learn a lot more doing this, as it will show you how all the bits work together.

I don't really have any specific projects I want to complete other than to learn to make various parts just because I can. Would comes to mind right now is that I would like to build a radio controlled off road buggy from scratch, manufacturing as much as possible myself. I also like to work on my 4wd and it would be handy to be able to manufacture various bits and pieces for the car or camper.
There wouldn't be too many parts that would require machining for a camper or the 4WD, maybe the odd hinge pin for the door or trailer. As you're planning on making a RC buggy, you might want to consider a small milling machine also, which I feel would be more advantageous, beware of the small X2 mills and such. I had one given to me, now I know why it was given to me!!!! All plastic gears inside them, even doing light work broke them. I'm talking from my experience, someone else will say differently.

I have read on other posts where people ask for lathe buying advice that many replies suggest to buy a good second hand lathe rather than a new Chinese lathe. I am a little hesitant to go down the second hand path due to my lack of knowledge on how to pick a "good" lathe.
Looking at a second hand lathe, will sometimes be financially better off, as depending on circumstances could come with a heap of tooling. This is where the amber fluid bribe comes to play, he should know what to look for/at.
I have been looking at some of the Chinese lathes and they mostly look very similar to each other with maybe a different paint colour or some other minor difference between them. The Hafco AL-320g seems like more than enough lathe for me, and I hear the after sales support from Hare and Forbes is quite good. I'm assuming this lathe is Chinese and is also at the top end of my budget.
Virtually all machines are made in China, the exception being Taiwan, which I believe to be a better quality (from what I've read here).
The Hercus-260 seems to have a reasonably strong following, but I don't know what features to look for. (By the way, I have 3 phase power to my house, I would just need to add a power point in my garage if I was to get a 3-phase machine)
Again ask your friend to help with what to look out for. Some people like Aussie tools, some aren't fussy as to what they get. 3 phase could be cheaper, as they're not in such high demand, except if someone is prepared to fit in a VFR, to give variable speeds.

Sorry for the long post, I'm not even sure what questions I should be asking. I'll try and summarise as best I can:

• Budget $3500 max including basic set of tools to get me started
E Bay would be your best bet, you should be able to get something for around the 2K mark, depending on how much room you have, leaving a good amount for tooling. Usually the larger the lathe the cheaper, not always though, because it won't fit into a lot of normal garages. Try to get a well known brand, would hold resale value better, should you not decide to learn any more.
• Lathe for hobby use only, no specific projects in mind. Just want to learn new skills at this stage.
Get the largest possible for what you think will be your needs, and what will fit in the shed/garage/lounge room. Once people know you can turn something, jobs will get bigger, and you'll have plenty of mates then.
• New lathe from reputable dealer or take risk on buying second hand? (I live in Sydney)
It'll be your choice and no one elses, but I feel S/H better value for money
• I would like a lathe that I would not outgrow too quickly Refer to the comment next one up
• Is a 38mm spindle bore (like on the AL-320g) a big advantage over a smaller machine with say a 26mm spindle bore? Or am I better off buying a smaller machine and have more money left over for tooling? Definitely an advantage, it'll get to a stage no matter what size machine, it'll be to small, ask anyone on here and I would guarantee that most would say wish it was larger.

I'm sure lots more questions will come to me later on, but I'll leave it at that for now (this post is already quite long).

I am happy to listen to any advice you are willing to offer.

Thanks, John.

Regards,
Kryn

As someone who has been in your situation before (really wanting to learn but hesitant to take the plunge) I went down the second-hand lathe path, a few times. And I think its worked out pretty well for me so far, ill try and lay out my thinking. PS I stareted getting right into machine work in about 2013 when I was 25, with an automotive background.

1. Second hand lathes are CHEAP, and what really eats the money is not the lathe but the TOOLING. (more about that later)
2. You can do perfectly good work on a worn lathe, even a very very bad example (obviously buying a not clapped out lathe is a good idea)
3. You can always sell a lathe for what you bought it for, especially if you give it a good clean and service(unless you buy a new lathe or one from a dealer)

I started by buying a 12" nuttall model C lathe from 1951, and it has done a lot of work, and had been single-phase converted with wayy too weak a motor (from 4hp to 1.5) I paid $900 and it came with a bit of tooling and both 3 and 4 jaw chucks. It still did everything I needed it to pus more and being big and tough was quite forgiving of amateur handling.

When my skills had come a bit further, I decided to buy a small precision lathe for when I needed the kind of accuracy below maybe 0.0005" which i couldnt get out of my Nuttall. So I bought a Myford ML7, still in its grease and shipping crate for $1100. So now between those two I could do everything a lathe can do, But most importantly I spread the cost out over time and really learned my needs through using the machines.

This also left me with a lot more money for buying all the other equipment you need to actually get accuracy out of you machine, Mics, a height gauge, small surface plate, telescoping bore gauges etc.

Then, as everyone in our position who buys a lathe eventually finds themselves, I needed a milling machine. And this right here is what you need to save your money for. Because all small milling machines that you can buy new, that I have ever seen here in Australia, are complete junk, especially the H&F units. Obviously that is controversial, but a decent new taiwanese milling machine or second hand mill is wayyyy more expensive than a decent chinese lathe. So when you want a mill you are going to need every penny you saved by not buying an AL-320G.

Since then I have sold the Nuttall as I got 3-phase and bought a much newer (70's) Macson, a Bridgeport and a shaper. but its always the tooling and measuring equipment that costs the money, even if you a scavenger like me.

The only other thing I would say is that to go down my road, you really have to love pulling things apart and not be afraid to have to break/remake/actually use your tools.

Thats just my 2 cents, and how it worked out for me.

Ralph

Hi Kryn and Ralph, thanks for your feedback. I like the idea of buy her new, because it is always fun and exciting to have brand new stuff. But I hate buying junk. I went through a phase of buying cheap chines crap, especially a few years back when the Aussie dollar was much stronger, but it was always a false economy. I'm sure there are perfectly adequate Chinese machines out there that would serve me well for many years to come. I would not know how to pick such a machine. I'm not looking for super fine precision, and all work would be be for me and purely as a hobby, so I would be perfectly happy with a machine that is not precise to fine tolerances. It's a. It difficult to know what features to look for without having any specific projects in mind.

What would be some brands/models of second hand lathes that would be good to learn on and for general hobby use (eg building RC buggy), and are there any common problems to look out for on specific lathes. The lathe will live in my garage at home, so I don't want anything too big. I want to save room to expand with more toys (I mean high quality machining tools that are a "necessity"!)

I forgot to ask, are eBay and gumtree the best places to watch for second hand lathes, or are there better websites out there?

I have had good success on gumtree and greysonline, get the right auction and you can really do well. In terms of brand information, lathes.co.uk is really good. I can give you feedback on the australian lathes I have been hands on with.

Some good rules of thumb:
- If it doesnt have a leadscrew its either a jewelers/clockmakers lathe or crap, either way probably not what you want.
- If you want to use insert tooling, you need a lathe with power or speed ideally both, its hard to get both in really old lathes, especially flat-belt driven ones, you be strictly using HSS on those
- see if the gibs are screwed/tensioned all the way in, if you cant adjust them in any more that is an indicator of high milage, same with the internal tailstock taper, if that is really gnarly inside, not a good sign
- watch out for shiny new paintjobs.
- take a dial indicator and mag base when you go and inspect a lathe, they can tell you a lot
- watch heaps of good youtube videos
- If it comes with a toolpost grinder (unlikely) or done a lot of cast-iron work look for bed wear very carefully (dial indicator from the carriage can tell you about this crudely)

Brands I have been hands on with:
- Hercus - good solid little south-bend clone, the later gear-headed ones are pretty darn awesome, good accessory range and interchability with US stuff. Lots of them around, mostly ex-tafe. people call them a toolroom lathe but they aren't really of that standard

- Myford - small swing flatbed lathe mostly for the modelmaker/hobbiest, can get every accessory ever, but you will pay the $$$ have to get creative in the small work envelope.

- LAM-xxx - Taiwanese lathe also called Laintaine, poncho heaps of other pseudonyms, kinda alright I guess. controls are pretty cramped, i seem to remember the slowest speed is a bit high for easy screwcutting.

- Herless - Imported a lot of Taiwanese equipment in the 80's and early 90's, got bought out by H & F, imo their tools were quite a lot better. Especially in fit and finish

- Nuttall - Bulky, top speed is only 750 RPM, has safety clutches on all feeds which is nice for a learner, like all gear-head lathes its pretty noisy, tailstock doesn't have heaps of travel. Good big unit though

- Macson - early ones are flat-bed which is good for convenience but when worn the carriage can move around a bit, needs to be shimmed out. Good top speed of 1000-1100RPM, these were mostly used in real heavy industries and a lot are now really pretty tired, but big and solid pretty easy to rebuild because of the flat-bed.

- Dean Smith & Grace - Biggest, heaviest, best. Really are just the nicest machines i've seen.

Originally Posted by jhv001

What would be some brands/models of second hand lathes that would be good to learn on and for general hobby use (eg building RC buggy), and are there any common problems to look out for on specific lathes. The lathe will live in my garage at home, so I don't want anything too big. I want to save room to expand with more toys (I mean high quality machining tools that are a "necessity"!)

You can't buy a new lathe inside your budget that's any good. That's just how it is - either you need to spend more, buy used or accept that the new machine you buy isn't going to be very good.

This one I'd personally take a close look at. It's a L series spindle nose so can be reversed without risk of the chuck coming loose. Not my favourite spindle nose, but much better than a threaded nose.

Metal Lathe in NSW | eBay

This one *might* be OK. I don't see a tailstock and that'd be a deal breaker if it was missing. Wear might be an issue.

Industrial Metal Lathe in NSW | eBay

There's a nice looking Colchester Student on eBay but it's at least $2000 overpriced IMO.

If you want a really good new lathe then this one is excellent but way outside your budget:

L242D | AL-1000D Centre Lathe | For Sale Sydney Brisbane Melbourne Perth | Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery online at machineryhouse.com.au

The AL960B is the cheapest lathe H&F sell that's worth owning, IMO, and also over your budget. Many here disagree with me but that's my opinion, I've played with a lot of lathes, every year I go and twiddle the knobs on H&F's offerings and nothing has caused me to alter my opinion.

Of course, it depends on what you want to do. If you want things kind of round and kind of parallel, if you don't mind using files and emery cloth a lot, if you don't need to bore for bearing recesses to 0.0005" tolerances, you can get by with less capable machines.

The best bang for buck is definitely buying a used machine but it has to be the right used machine and unfortunately, there's no way of telling a good one from a crap one without getting your hands on it.

It's a truism that a skilled operator can turn out good work on a worn and crap machine, but a beginner can't and will just get frustrated.

Personally I'd take a real close look at that Celtic 14......

PDW

Hi John

The advice given by the forum members is excellent .

I am still a newbie , you think you know it all but often something crops up and you go back to square one ...... again and again.

I would go for something like a Hercus 260 . I know they are not the most rigid lathe around but you can do a awful lot of machining with a 260. Being Aust. made, parts should not be a problem. Just my 2 pennies worth . The heavier lathes can be a pain to move around and the cost of moving a heavy lathe can be more than the purchase price ..... believe me I know ! Mike

Originally Posted by morrisman

Hi John

I would go for something like a Hercus 260 . I know they are not the most rigid lathe around but you can do a awful lot of machining with a 260. Being Aust. made, parts should not be a problem.

Ok, when was the last time anyone here needed to buy parts for their lathe?

I'm not talking about pulleys, motors or stuff like that, I mean machined castings, lead screws, gears etc.

FWIW I've owned lathes, mills and various other machine tools for over 30 years and I can't *ever* recall buying replacement parts from the manufacturer.

The only time I tried, 600 Machinery wanted more for a new carriage rack than I'd paid for the lathe.

So IMO the availability or otherwise of parts is a complete red herring.

As for people recommending someone buy a Hercus 260, PeteF bought a new one, remember?

The fit & finish was unacceptable to him - he had to rescrape the compound and other bits.

Just how much better than brand new does anyone think a used one is going to be? Well, OK, if you prise Pete's off of him, a lot better. Don't like your chances though.

I'd rather have a geared head camlock Chinese lathe with a decent spindle bore than any Hercus. At least it'd have a decent sized spindle bore and a D1-4 camlock chuck mount......

PDW

My view is that a newbie is likely to make some learners' mistakes. These could damage the machine.
I'm glad I bought a new Asian lathe first. I did two bad things with it.
First, I took it as read that soluble oil would protect the working surfaces. Wrong. Nasty rust attack where it was left for too long.
Second, I stripped a bronze gear in the saddle. Annoyed there were no spares available, had to get one made.
Not everyone is a clumsy klutz like me, but I'm happy to report that I've not done serious damage to my later machines.
I'm a fan of Hercus, accepting they are a mechanic's, rather than a toolroom lathe. I'm not making parts for astronauts.
Availability of affordable accessories is about as good as it gets for a half decent lathe.
Last piece of advice - stay well away from the smaller Chinese 7x lathes. I had one of these briefly - it was astonishingly bad. I cannot understand why they are so popular! Bigger ones seem OK.

RE parts Availability I can get a new Bronze back gear for the 1955 Smart and brown $800 aud.

Definitely go second hand if your on a budget

I picked up a used hare & Forbes AL330A for like $1,500 a couple years back. Pretty much the same as this http://www.wotol.com/images/thumbs/8...1a3eac61db.jpg

Came complete with everything as far as I'm aware, 3 jaw chuck, 4 jaw chuck, face plate, tail stock, change gears, fixed steady, traveling steady ect.
I'll be honest and say it was my first lathe and still is the only lathe I have owned, have used a friends lathe once before I bought mine.
I really didn't have much of an idea what I was looking at, it looked like a lathe and I could get it at a decent price so I bought it......

It has taught me heaps, I have thrown down some money on insert tooling, collet chucks for the tail stock and collet sets. If i decide to get a different lathe I can keep most of my tooling as it will change across. I think if I sold the bare lathe I could probably get my money back or at least close to it.

Buy a new AL320G and you will loose a lot more, I find the power and rigidity limit of the AL330A quite frequently, I think most people would outgrow a AL320G real quick, especially if you want to do steel.

If your patient, check out ebay, graysonline & gumtree and something will come up, I think I scouted for about 6 months before I found mine, I constantly see some good looking used lathe's on grays online, most seem to be in NSW so if your okay for a short drive you should have heaps to choose from.

Happy Hunting

Originally Posted by welder

RE parts Availability I can get a new Bronze back gear for the 1955 Smart and brown $800 aud.

Give me dimensions and I'll make it for A$750

Seriously though, there are two things I come back to when confronted with this sort of question

• As PDW says, when was the last time anyone needed to buy parts for their lathe? Any parts I've needed I've made myself or got someone else to make them. Unless you buy proper industrial machines parts are rare as, expensive and usually not available. If you contacted H&F and said there was a crack in the bed of the lathe you had just bought, the chances are that they would replace the whole thing. Conclusion - don't worry about spares. You are unlikely to need them and if you do unlikely to find them...
• Everyone (especially self taught turners) buys at least 2 lathes if they get serious about this hobby. The first is to learn on, the second (and subsequent) are to get the features that are important to you. I like the idea of beginners starting on a small lathe. You learn how to sharpen HSS. You learn that lathes can bite without it necessarily being permanent or fatal. You learn from your mistakes.

From that point of view whether you buy a new H&F benchtop lathe or a used Hercus is secondary to learning what you do want and how to do it (although a bigger bore is always better). I favour old industrial type machines as you can learn as much during the refurbishment process as you can making swarf. Some people want to start 'now' and so a machine in pieces is an anathema to them. Of course, lots of the 'hobbyist' type lathes are build to a price so sooner or later you will decide that you have to take it apart to fix/ tighten/ clean the... Horses for courses.

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

As PDW says, when was the last time anyone needed to buy parts for their lathe? Any parts I've needed I've made myself or got someone else to make them.

Hum . . . . . Not everyone, especially newbies, have the gear, skills, or contacts to do that. I got my Hercus for nothing including quite a few extras but there were a few things damaged and missing and to get it running I had to purchase a replacement back gear. I made a few things myself like draw and boring bars, small rotary table mounting plate and cross slide/compound vice, and tool post T-nuts but I bought a set of metric gears, and there are still some bits and piece missing off the lathe that are beyond what I can make and I would like to purchase at some stage.

Originally Posted by Michael G

I favour old industrial type machines as you can learn as much during the refurbishment process as you can making swarf. Some people want to start 'now' and so a machine in pieces is an anathema to them. Of course, lots of the 'hobbyist' type lathes are build to a price so sooner or later you will decide that you have to take it apart to fix/ tighten/ clean the... Horses for courses.

Michael

I've got 3 lathes.

A mint condition Austrian Emco Maximat 11. Truly a jewel of a machine. Bit lightweight but solid and accurate - just don't take a really heavy cut.

Reasonable condition Colchester Chipmaster. I had to make a new rack and pinion gear/shaft for it and realign the headstock. It has an issue with its Kopp variator which is annoying but regardless, it cuts accurately, can take a heavy cut and is very solid. There's probably only 2 or 3 lathes made that I'd trade it for. I really like this machine and use it for about 80% or more of my turning.

Monarch CY 16" swing by 54" between centres. This machine was made in 1942, is built like the proverbial brick dunny but has gross wear in the cross slide and compound plus some bed wear. I can still do accurate work with it but it's a fight and it's the sort of machine with this level of wear I'd never recommend to a beginner. I'm weighing up whether to sell it or overhaul it, the biggest issue being its 1 1/2" spindle bore. I can't fix *that*. OTOH it has a truly wonderful taper turning attachment and a single lever single tooth dog clutch setup in the carriage/threading feed system that makes some jobs a lot less fraught (boring to blind shoulders being a classic example).

I bought that machine sight unseen off of eBay and it was in a welding shop, which I knew was bad news. I got what I paid for.... which wasn't a lot of dinero.

Incidentally it's an example of a machine still supported by its original manufacturer - all parts are available. Affordability is fine (provided you work in black projects for the US Dept of Defence....).

If the Chinese machine importers would just do some even half-arsed QA on their products, a newbie would be best served by buying one and avoiding the crapshoot of used machinery. But they don't really so buying a cheap new machine doesn't get you any better assurance of fitness for purpose than buying used gives you.

The bright side is, you get to spend *lots* of money on dial test indicators, test bars, Biax scrapers, surface plates, straight edges, precision levels etc etc et bloody cetera just so you have a machine that works as a lathe should.....

All this goes quadruple for milling machines. Plus the tooling is even more varied and expensive. It's a great hobby, makes boats look cheap.

PDW