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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Melbourne
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    Default 3Ph Power to Shed

    I'm going to have another run at getting quotes on having three phase connected.

    The last guy was talking about 25mm cable to the house and I think 16mm to the shed, and 18 point board in the shed.

    What is the difference between 3ph outlets having 3 pin, 4 pin or 5 pin which am I most likely to need and how many AMP?



    My current list of 3ph machines include:
    Colchester Master Lathe
    Waldown Drill Press
    Waldown Grinders

    12" Cresecent Jointer



    The linisher, Jig Saw, etc will have VFDs for speed control anyway.



    When the opportunity arises I hope to get a milling machine.




    Any tips or advice on spec or traps to watch out for. Also any recommendations on where to buy used points, plugs, sockets etc that can help make this affordable?
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    71
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    5,942

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    What is the difference between 3ph outlets having 3 pin, 4 pin or 5 pin which am I most likely to need and how many AMP?
    My current list of 3ph machines include:
    Colchester Master Lathe
    Waldown Drill Press
    Waldown Grinders
    12" Cresecent Jointer
    When the opportunity arises I hope to get a milling machine.
    Any tips or advice on spec or traps to watch out for. Also any recommendations on where to buy used points, plugs, sockets etc that can help make this affordable?
    Hi Dale,
    You will need to know what the max amps each machine will draw, to work out the size of Plugs and Sockets, I would say that most if not all would fall into the 10 amp range. Run a decent size cable to where you think you'll fit the mill, C/B and socket can be fitted at any time later.
    Beware as some plugs and sockets have a flat while others have key/slot type arrangement.
    If you have a friendly sparky ask them to look for some otherwise Gumtree or fleabay you might find some
    I'm no sparky, but from dealing with friends who are/were, the different numbers of pins and sizes on 3ph plugs, denote the max amperages that the plugs and sockets can handle.
    Kryn

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    near Rockhampton
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    6,216

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    I
    What is the difference between 3ph outlets having 3 pin, 4 pin or 5 pin which am I most likely to need and how many AMP?


    4 pin are 3 phases + earth.

    5 pin, 3 phases + earth + neutral..

    Voltage between phases is around 415V

    Voltage between phase and neutral is around 240V.

    There is a mathematical connection between 415 and 240 which is why those voltages are what they are, they are not simply chosen.

    Good read here as to how complicated electricity can be http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-sig...e-doesnt-exist
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Australia east coast
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    Default

    There are no 3 pin 3 phase plugs AFAIK. 4 pin minimum - 3 phases plus earth.

    I use the 5 pin 15A plugs & sockets. The only machine I have that needs more is a 25HP air compressor that has a 32A dedicated line & breakers. All my other machines are 7.5HP or less. The reason I use the 5 pin sockets is, you can plug a 4 pin extension cable in as well as a 5 pin, you just don't get neutral, but you can pull off single phase circuits for lights, pumps et al.

    Sub board - they're cheap, each 3 phase breaker eats 3 slots, so more slots is better. It's amazing how fast you populate them - I like to have lots of dedicated circuits though. Breakers are pretty cheap too.

    I'd say that you need no more than 32A to your sub-board so depending on the length of cable run, 4mm minimum but I personally never go less than 6mm 5 core (3 phase, neutral & earth) because the difference in price is small. 25mm is WAAAAY overkill unless your cable run is really long. I think my line from the line fuses to the main board breaker is only 16mm and it has a 63A breaker (main switch). Bigger cable only hurts your wallet the first time it's run so if in doubt, go up a size.

    Sub board & breakers, I buy from the local electrical wholesaler, new. Plugs & sockets, I have a lifetime supply but otherwise I'd buy them off of eBay. The prices from the dealers are way too dear.

    PDW

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    lillimur
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    Default

    Hi Dale,
    I have Standardized on 5 Pin 20 amp plugs and sockets.
    Cheapest I have found are at Nightingale Electrics.
    John

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Athelstone, SA 5076
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    4,255

    Default

    4 pin are usually used for machinery which need the 415v for motors of course, but and also use 415v for the control circuits (uses 2 phases instead of 1 active to nuetral)

    so my advice is:
    always have 5pin...even if a neutral is not needed at that moment...... as one day you will need it...especially if fitting a dro

  7. #7
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    There are no 3 pin 3 phase plugs AFAIK.
    One problem is that there are single phase 3 pin plugs that look like 3Phase plugs
    eg http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-PIN-32A...-/131449695536
    I have seen even seen one of these wired up to three phase motor i.e. machine had no earth!!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Kimberley, West Australia
    Posts
    176

    Default 3 Phase Sevices

    For a new instal, Rascal (post 5 above) has the right idea. Those 20A outlets with the locating flat will accept the 15A plugs as well. If you will only run 1 or 2 machines at a time you should be able to have 3 or 4 outlets across a single breaker. (Check wiring rules). I seem to have collected a fleet of smaller 3 phase devices, welder, drill, saw, hoist, a mill and 2 lathes etc, and get away with just 2 outlets inside and one outdoors for compressor and pressure washer.
    Was able to use some good s/h outlets and the one 3ph circuit kept instal cost affordable.
    PS, Don't skimp on single phase outlets in convenient locations and avoid frustration.
    Combustor.
    Old iron in the Outback, Kimberley WA.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    One problem is that there are single phase 3 pin plugs that look like 3Phase plugs
    eg http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-PIN-32A...-/131449695536
    I have seen even seen one of these wired up to three phase motor i.e. machine had no earth!!
    Urk. That could be really bad news.

    I have a couple 20A single phase outlets with 3 pin plug/sockets that are from the same industrial (clipsal) family, never occurred to me someone might use them for 3 phase.

    PDW

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Canberra
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    Default

    I too have settled on 5 pin 20 amp switches for my 3 phase circuitry. I buy all my stuff off ebay and it works a treat...I cant remember how much cheaper it was than using the local electrical mob but its heaps...half price I think.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Perth
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    Default

    I've been doing a smidge of reading about 3ph in regards to my own shed, so hopefully some of my findings will help you with cost determination.
    Unless under a very strict budget, make sure the circuit can supply 32a. Better to have it and never need it, than need it but not have it.
    If it's 30m upwards from main circuit to shed circuit, 10mm2 cable is pretty much what you need, I believe. Price jump between 6mm2 and 10mm2 4c+E is a bit of a wince inducer sadly.
    If you're not sure about what equipment you're going to get, make sure you have at least one 32a outlet. You can get nice little adpators which has a 32a male plug going to a 20a female socket. I tell you what, the amount of swearing I did in a previous job when I dragged a welder across the factory to find a lone 20a socket when the machine was 32a, well, it was a lot

    Also, as mentioned, make sure all your sockets are 5 pin. Nothing does your head in quite like going to plug something in, only to find the socket is only a 4 pin, and your plug a 5.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    The house has 2Ph power so I have to run a matching cable to the the house for the 3rd phase.

    Thanks for all the advice guys, seems to be a consensus on a lot of the points.
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    The house has 2Ph power so I have to run a matching cable to the the house for the 3rd phase.
    Your existing single phase service will only have one 240V phase and a Neutral run in from the pole / service pit.

    A fresh install for 3 phase will be a new install of a 4 core cable, they wont mix and match, single or 3 phase supplies, just by pulling in a extra core or two.

    That would be the 25mm2 the first sparky mentioned. That's the cross sectional area of each core. Its a lot of copper.

    Regards Phil.

  14. #14
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    Dec 2007
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    Default

    My house is a bit unusual as it used to be an art gallery and had a big air-conditioning unit, gone now but as a result we have 2phase to the board. Same as some farms have but not very common. Which is why it was mistakenly said to us there was 3ph here before we decided to move here. The shed however only has 240v
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  15. #15
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    Oct 2007
    Location
    Sydney
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    Default

    I too have 2 phase. I can see the third phase running down to the facia board, but it's just tied back there. Connecting the third phase to get something useful has turned out to be a PIA, as the board is mounted on asbestos so can't be drilled.

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