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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Willunga
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    Default Hercus Number 1 Tool and Cutter Grinder - with a side order of brick dust!

    Hi all

    I have just bought off Gumtree a Hercus number 1 tool and cutter grinder and have a few questions. The previous owner bought it from a brickworks where, after it was decommissioned, it was apparently stored in a shed where it was liberally coated with brick dust! It has some rust on it but any surface that was oiled has a thick layer of brick dust. It came with a box of accessories which as it it is now dark and raining I haven't yet unpacked.

    This thing will need a total strip and clean up which I hope to get to later in the year. I imagine that this will involve some sort of dipping/electrolysis of major components to remove the rust. I need to stabilize it for some months before I work on it. My first thought was to brush as much dust off it as I could and then paint it over with diesel - what do people think? Will the diesel interfere with later dipping?

    It seems like a fairly late machine, does anyone know where the serial number is or how to date it?

    Does anyone have a manual for this machine or know where I might be able to get one?

    In buying this machine my ambitions certainly exceed my skills - is there a book on T&C grinding that would be a good place to start?

    Thanks

    Ian

    IMG_0266[1].jpgIMG_0267[1].jpgIMG_0268[1].jpg

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    3,798

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    Hi Ian. Nice score. Looks like you got a quire a few of the accesories too!

    If you have a look on the RHS of the table you will see some numbers. I think these numbers will be the month and year it was made. My 3A was made in sep 1967. Im away from home ATM but I think mine is stamped 67/9 or 9/67 something like that. No point contacting Hercus, business was sold some years ago and it seems they have no records or interest in their products made some time back.

    Simon
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Perth WA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    6,065

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    Hello Ian,

    I have the same grinder - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...30#post1715330

    I also have the original manual along with a reprint supplied by Hercus. It is probably easier for me to photocopy and post you the manual than have you root around with a scan. If you are interested, send me a PM containing your postal address.

    The "manual" is hardly a Peter Hercus "Text Book of Turning" equivalent, more a few typed pages stapled together. Just crushing any high hopes!

    Bob.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    1,379

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNutter View Post
    - is there a book on T&C grinding that would be a good place to start?
    Norton, of abrasive wheel fame, had a hand book called Toolroom Grinding. I just checked and its been scanned.

    (Warning Large File)
    http://neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/Nor...20Grinding.pdf

    You might be able to find a real copy on Amazon or Ebay.

    Regards Phil.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Willunga
    Posts
    104

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    Thanks very much Simon, Bob and Phil.

    Simon, I will buy myself a brass brush and clean up the table to see if I can find the number.

    Bob the manual would be great, I will send you a PM. Today I unpacked the accessories and will now compare them to the photos in your post to see if I have everything.



    IMG_0269[1].jpg


    Phil, I will chase up a copy of the book, it sounds like a good place to start.



    Regards

    Ian

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    66
    Posts
    3,438

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    A good book to get, is Tool and Cutter Sharpening by Harold Hall. Workshop Practice Series number 38. It shows how to adapt a standard bench grinder, to be able to sharpen lathe tools, drills and milling cutters, by making reasonably simple tools to go on the grinder. Priced from Minitech in Qld $18. 00 plus Grab Snatch and Take, and postage. No connection with the business, just a happy customer. Well worth the money though
    Kryn

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Willunga
    Posts
    104

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    Thanks Kryn!

    Well I couldn't resist the temptation to have a fiddle with something as interesting as the T&C grinder and have started to clean it up - seems like the projects have been reorganized!

    I checked the wiring over and powered it up, everything works, a good first step!

    I then started to strip and clean it. The amount of clay dust in the thing is simply amazing. This is what I found under the table, you can see where I put a diagonal scratch in with a screwdriver


    IMG_0271[1].jpg

    That layer of crap is between 3 and 5mm thick. It has obviously been quite wet. This is far more than it could possibly have picked up in storage and I wonder if it has been used to regularly sharpen some part of the brick production machinery? The dust is soft and fine, not at all abrasive. It feels like talc and not at like fired brickdust.

    It cleans up remarkably easily, this is the same area after some brushing. You have to get most of it out with a brush, I would cough for week if I blew it out with compressed air.

    IMG_0273[1].jpg

    Despite it obviously have been wet it is coming apart very easily. Every nut, bolt and pin has been free and has come straight out. It is obviously very well made and was carefully assembled. The only irritation is that thus far I have found WW, AF and Metric fixings, I have a very large pile of spanners out.

    Hopefully I will get a bit more time later in the week to investigate further and then make a plan.

    Regards

    Ian

    IMG_0273[1].jpg

    IMG_0271[1].jpg

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    adelaide
    Posts
    586

    Default

    another link to some maybe helpful info although is for a clarkson http://www.bedroom-workshop.com/grin...ksonbooks.html
    john

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Willunga
    Posts
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    Default

    Thanks John. Have you had time to begin to sort yours? Where I got the machine wasn't that far from where we bought the other machines. What is it about the North East and machines? From a South West perspective everything that I buy seems to involve a long drive and a very slow trip home!

    I did a couple of hours of further dis-assembly this afternoon and the only thing left that I have to move is the main column. This is well stuck. I don't think that it is rusty, rather I suspect that it is just stuck on oil that has gone sticky. Years ago I bought a combination woodworking machine that had been sitting a long time on which both the thicknesser and moulder columns were stuck this way. They eventually yielded to a lot of RP7 and some gentle persuasion with a rubber mallet. I am off to buy some more RP7 in the morning. In a worst case I imagine it could be pressed out.

    IMG_0274[1].jpg

    If I have to have it pressed out it it would be much easier to do if I removed the the y axis base, this sits on top of the upper main casing and is held by 4 bolts, is is a very simple thing to remove. Will it however be as easy to replace? Is it likely to be be precision aligned or shimmed? Am I better leaving well enough alone?

    Regards

    Ian

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    66
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    Looks like tooo much trouble to mess with, I'll come around and take it off your hands, if you like.
    Enjoying reading this thread for the fun and games with restoration work. A great learning curve, of what to look out for.
    Kryn.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Willunga
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    Thanks Kryn, it is certainly an interesting machine to play with!

    With the sun shining I should have been pruning today but skived off and did some more on on the Hercus. As a first ploy I put a sling on the stuck column and lets the machine suspended by the the column for a couple of hours, that is around 350kg. Total effect zip.

    I then bit the bullet and removed the Y axis base, it is located by two very tight dowell pins and the mating surfaces have been scraped. I then separated the two main castings, this involves stripping out the switching and a lot of wiring. With the upper casting on blocks I was able to belt the bottom of the column with a rubber mallet which moved it quite quickly.

    IMG_0281[1].jpg

    I also stripped the main grinding spindle, which after I made up an arbor spanner came apart really easily. I broke up the old wheel and used the pin spanner from a Makita angle grinder to remove the nut. I will have to make up a pin spanner to mount wheels - does anyone have one to hand? If so could you put up a picture?

    The bearings should have oil in them but had been pumped full of grease. I am not sure if this is a good or a bad idea? There are no oil seals on the spindle and I imagine that any oil would be flung out quite quickly. The grease seems to have stayed put and protected the bearings.

    I then started to clean it up for reassembly. I went over the large areas of paint with a scourer and soapy water to try and remove the last of the clay residue. I could not wash this stuff off and finished up going over it with some automotive cutting compound and then some wax. This was quick and has worked really well. It avoids having to paint the machine and has saved some nice things like the Made in Australia boomerang and the original McPerson sticker.


    IMG_0283[1].jpg

    The plan is to reassemble it to the point of getting the column in and the table mounted. I can then get a dial gauge out and see how well it is moving. After that I will have to do some pruning.

    Regards

    Ian






    IMG_0281[1].jpgIMG_0283[1].jpg

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Perth WA
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    Ian,

    I had previously made a pin spanner for the No.3 and gave it to Peter "PDW" when I gave him its spindle. I turned up a new spanner based on the shape of the earlier one and made a new pair of nuts while I was at it. This time I used 4140 for the body rather than the rust while you look at it 1214 of the former and the nuts are 1045.

    I have no idea what the Hercus original spanner might have looked like and the spanner that accompanied the No.1 certainly doesn't look like Peter Fou's handiwork or Hercus'.

    Bob.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
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    Feb 2012
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    Willunga
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    Thanks Bob, I am not sure that mine will look as good as that...

    Is that an extension spindle? Is it threaded onto the main spindle?

    Regards

    Ian

  14. #14
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    Feb 2012
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    Willunga
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    I have found a bit of time to clean and reassemble the Hercus, it now looks like this. I didn't want to leave in a million bits for long or I might not remember how it goes together! Cleaned up and oiled it now looks like this. The only thing that I have found to be broken is the thumbscrew on the Y axis graduated collar. Given the state of the machine when I got it (for a low price on a take a risk basis) this seems to be remarkable, fingers crossed for the rest of it.

    IMG_0293.jpg

    Next step mount and check the table.

    For the benefit on anyone else stripping one of these things. I got caught on one small thing.

    IMG_0292[1].jpg

    This view, inside the main top casting shows the rack and gear that raises the column (Z). The gear rotates on a small shaft that sits flush with outside of the casting and has an oil nipple in it. I didn't realize that there is a -very hard - retaining screw underneath the yoke on the RH side, where it is impossible to see. I discovered that if you tap the shaft to remove it without discovering and removing the retaining screw it scores the shaft. The shaft in turn scores the casting. This prevents the carefully cleaned up shaft from being replaced. I further discovered that the only 5/8 ream that I had was too short to reach right through the casting on the LH side, this necessitated making a rough ream out of some 5/8 shaft that I fortunately had.

    I need to get an oil gun to go with this machine, something that I know nothing about. Is this the go?
    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GUN-OIL-G...item234f5bf157

    Regards

    Ian


    IMG_0293.jpgIMG_0292[1].jpg

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Perth WA
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    Thanks for the advice Ian.

    The oiler is the one you need. You will need to check the nipples to ensure that they aren't clogged with grease along with any oil ways.

    The photo above is of the spindle extension after a clean up and one small modification, the result of a scare. I had a 6" wheel mounted on the extension while playing around with a bit of surface grinding. The motor is VFD controlled and when I hit stop on the VFD, its braking was abrupt enough to cause the extension to unwind. Fortunately no damage occurred. I drilled two holes 180 degrees apart on the extension's rear flange to enable the use of a C spanner to tighten it.

    Bob.

    PS On the topic of surface grinding, here's some photos of a simple mechanism to traverse the table. Might provide some inspiration for both of us. - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...51#post1344851
    Last edited by Anorak Bob; 4th Jun 2015 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Added something

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