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  1. #1
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    Default CNC lathe spindle suggestions sought.

    Hello all,

    I'm planning a CNC lathe build. I've previously converted a 7x16 mini lathe (from Titan machinery) but found it lacklustre and largely unusable due to significant quality issues. Rather than spend more good time and money on my existing machine I'm going to build a new one.

    I've acquired a piece of RHS 200x200x9 to form the bed.
    Linear motion is in the form of profile linear bearings (beautiful things really) and ballscrews.

    I'm looking for a spindle.
    1. The option I'd like in an ideal world is a cartridge spindle such as http://www.posa-spindle.com/en/product-73-29
    This would be ideal because I can make a headstock, and just need to machine a mounting face and a bore for the cartridge.
    There are a few issues with this:
    a) Cost - looking at >$1000 plus shipping. I'll spend this if I need to, but it buys a lot of other stuff / tooling.
    b) Shipping
    - by air ~$400-500 and not available for all spindle sellers.
    - by sea I've been quoted $100, but then I think I'll be faced with port fees, custom fees etc etc etc etc etc
    c) Cost also puts it in to paying tax and duty territory.
    d) They all use A2-4 spindles noses or similar. Not hard to make a collet chuck for, but I can't find 150-200mm chucks in Australia to suit, which adds another heavy import item. 'A' mount chucks seem much less common than D1-4 also.

    2. Get a manual lathe spindle (new)
    Pros:
    Cheaper
    More likely to get one than chucks are easier to match
    Cons:
    Machining more difficult
    May be problematic to get
    - I contacted Hafco - they don't keep any in stock and quote a lead time of 16 weeks. They didn't want to even mention a price.

    3. Spindle +/- headstock secondhand
    Could be good, could be a crap shoot.

    Anyone got any suggestions?
    Any particular preferences for spindle noses? I think I'd much prefer a D1-4 or A2-4 - quick and easy to change.
    I'll likely be using a 4 Jaw and a collet chuck mostly.

  2. #2
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    Default

    Have you considered something like the spindle for the Stepperhead lathe?

    http://www.lathes.co.uk/stepperhead/

  3. #3
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    I would suggest give up any ideas of "making" a CNC lathe right now and save up and purchase a decent second hand lathe and convert it...

    As soon as I read 200 SHS for a bed it is going to be nothing but a failure...

    As soon as you do anything to that SHS it will bend and bow... Your linear bearings I cannot see being up to the task of metal lathe duty...

    Steel is a very poor performer in making machine tools in that it is prone to harmonics... Like a bell ringing...

    It is not that you cannot fabricate a machine tool out of steel sections, you can if properly designed with proper heat treatment and then deadened by materials like special concrete type stuff... But it is not something for the unwary...

    That is my 2c anyway...
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  4. #4
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    RC,

    Manual lathes in my size (and price) range (read Chinese machines) are fundamentally not suited for CNC use and are a series of compromises.
    If you are used to 1ton+ machines then what I'm building will not be equivalent, because it's much closer in size and use to a 9x20.
    I've thought about buying a decent bit of used iron, but there a number of reasons not to:
    1. Much has significant wear and requires reconditioning
    2. If it is in good condition I'd prefer not to butcher a rare old machine that is designed for one thing - manual use and certainly not designed for CNC.
    3. I rent and as such can't accommodate a large and heavy machine

    200x200 SHS is pretty stiff stuff compared to the beds of lathes in the size range I'm building.
    I'm planning to pour epoxy granite in as dampening.

    If you think proper linear bearings are not up to metal work duty then you are wrong. VMCs and CNC lathes are based on these.

    I'm not going to be taking 5mm cuts in hardened steel. I mostly play around with aluminium and some plastics. I don't need production speeds. From fairly extensive research there is no real alternative to my wants other than to build. Others have done it successfully.

    Big Shed,
    I can't see, at a quick glance, much on the actual spindle, but I'll have a proper read of the page when a bit more time permits. It looks like an interesting machine.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post

    If you think proper linear bearings are not up to metal work duty then you are wrong. VMCs and CNC lathes are based on these.
    I am aware of that, but the ones on VMC's and the like are not cheap linear ways..

    In any case it seems you have researched enough to know what you want..

    As far as spindles go...

    A Hercus Spindle?


    http://australianmetalworkinghobbyis...product_id=253
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  6. #6
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    RC,
    I've got a pair of THK HSR30 for the Z axis. These are found in full size VMCs.
    I've got a pair of Hiwin HG25 for the X axis.
    These are not cheap chinese chromed round rails.
    This build will cost a couple of thousand all up.

    Thanks for the suggestion on the Hercus. I'm averse to using a threaded spindle as I'd like to be able to machine with chuck spinning in both directions, e.g. for rear mounted parting tool or second tool.

  7. #7
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    Ueee is offline Blacksmith, Cabinetmaker, Machinist, Messmaker
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    I have seen a few Thai and Chinsy machines around for decent $$ of late, a bit bigger than you want but cheaper than shipping in a spindle. No need to worry about butchering a classic and should be young enough not to be flogged out.

    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  8. #8
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    Have a good look at the German Wabeco lathes. They offer two models in CNC outfit. The smaller one is their lathe with a bed made of two round bars - it lends itself by nature quite well to being CNC'ed. The larger has the prismatic bed. Generally, Wabeco lathes are from scratch up designed to be both manual and CNC lathes. They were among the first maker to offer CNC hobbylathes and mills many years ago.There is now also an importer in Australia.

    Yes Wabeco are expensive, but not excessively expensive, and what you are proposing to cobble together would be just as expensive too. One big difference is, a used Wabeco will always sell for a good price regardless the age. A homemade lathe, particularly if you stick to the not so good idea of using rhs sections, is an instant write-off. It makes no sense to me to use expensive spindles and linear slides on a lathe based on rhs steel. If money matters, I would rather suggest you keep looking Australian ebay, I have recently seen things like small Demco CNC lathes and Hercus CNC lathes popping up for real cheap. Sure you got to toss the obsolete stepper motors and electronics, but at least the underlying machines are sound and ready to accept new CNC gear. There also was once a small EMCO CNC machine (compact 5CNC) back in the early 90's, mostly used at schools to demonstrate CNC , and this is still today a cheap base for upgraded new electronics and steppers.

    Personally, I wonder why you are after a light CNC hobbylathe.... I could understand the desire for a light CNC mill much better. Anyway, that is your choice. But have a look at the Tormach site too, I think they also do a CNC lathe, a bit heavier that hobby-grade though.

  9. #9
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    Interesting project... just yesterday I picked up a 4.2Kw brushless dc servo, which is probably going to end up a lathe or mill spindle..

    I'm hoping to eventually find a smallish CNC lathe with dead electronics, that I can re-condition and retrofit with a Linux based control system.

    Still looking.... although I see a number of CNC lathes coming up for auction in SA next week... will watch prices with interest.

    Something like this http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0061-...n-wingfield-sa which is not working, parts missing, parts only will probably be a good one to watch..

    Ray

  10. #10
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    Out interest what did you find lacking In the 7X20 that you converted ? steppers and Mach3 or Linux CNC

    Have look at Simon and Nigel's site they have some machines for sale, for conversion or out of the box read to go

    http://www.benchtopcnc.com.au/for_sale.html

    I was converting a PC160 to Steppers and Mach3 but was lucky enough to find a PC 200, 8 tool turret, servo motors, ball screws, hardened ways ,conversational programing, quiet good thing. the PC160 conversion is on hold for awhile

  11. #11
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    If/when I go down this path I'll be doing what Ray suggests and finding an old machine, gutting it and rebuilding it with modern controllers etc with better amateur and enthusiast support. There's relatively few people like Ray and myself still around who were trained in the days of discrete electronics and could repair the old boards now anyway, and that situation will only get worse as time marches on.

    Personally I think the OP is on a hiding to nothing in building a lathe from the ground up, at least something that would be useful. There's no doubt it can be done, but the money spent will be completely trashed as the net value when complete will be virtually zero. At least if a small existing commercial machine is rebuilt there's a good chance you may recover some or even all of your component costs if sold on with functioning modern controllers. I appreciate the difficulties of a rental situation, but personally I'd rather overcome those logistics rather than tip a few grand down the drain. But whatever floats your boat I guess.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Interesting project... just yesterday I picked up a 4.2Kw brushless dc servo, which is probably going to end up a lathe or mill spindle..

    I'm hoping to eventually find a smallish CNC lathe with dead electronics, that I can re-condition and retrofit with a Linux based control system.

    Still looking.... although I see a number of CNC lathes coming up for auction in SA next week... will watch prices with interest.

    Something like this http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0061-...n-wingfield-sa which is not working, parts missing, parts only will probably be a good one to watch..

    Ray
    It will be interesting to see what some of those machines go for. I was at an auction earlier this year that had 3 hitachi seki HT20R lathes. 2 were about the same vintage as the ones coming up at the grays auction. They both had 6Meter bar feeders and they went for $1000 each, a hobbyist got one. The same bloke also got a Haas VF2 mill for $1500. I would be seriously looking at a CNC lathe or mill but I bought another tractor a week before the auction was listed, so I'm a bit poor now.

    Back on topic. pippin if you are really serious about building a good little lathe I would go with option 1. If you are turning small parts the 6000-8000 top speed will really help. If you use a manual lathe spindle you wont get the rpm. Have you just tried the internet for A2-4 chucks or have you talked to any of the major tool suppliers? A lot of that sort of stuff you have to ring them and talk to them to get P&A. If you cant get a A2-4 chuck you could make a adapter to go to a camlock spindle nose. We had one on a Cnc lathe at work once, It was pretty crap we ended up taking it off. the other way is to make a backing plate that bolts onto the spindle and then bolt the chuck to that. that's how we mount a 3 jaw chuck to one of the lathes at work, and it works pretty well. RC has a good point about the bit of rhs, its highly stressed and is going to move in ways you never even thought of when you start taking material off it (I know this from experience).I would get it stress relived before you machine it. I also think you will have rigidity issues using it as a bed for your lathe, I know I have had issues machining RHS that size before, but if you fill the rhs with epoxy granite you will have a pretty rigid machine. I will be keen to see how your build goes.

  13. #13
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    Hi pippin88,

    You might already be aware that SHS is not exactly straight as it comes from the supplier. That applies to pretty much all structural steel as the specs it is made to (and the use to which it is put) don't require heaps of accuracy. With that in mind, you might want to get critical areas of your SHS machined to be parallel and/or square. Doing so probably will help prevent twisting and or alignment problems with your rails etc. That might cost a couple hundred dollar at the start but it might prevent the same amount in frustration later. Filling it with granite epoxy is a good idea.

    Someone mentioned the tormach 15SL CNC lathe and that would be one of my choices in this size of lathe, I think they start at about USD $11,500. Not all CNC conversions of manual lathes end up a kludge. Babbin Machine do a very nice CNC conversion of a Hardinge HLV-H. I am guessing that both of these lathes are out of your price range (mine too at the moment!)

    Raiding a spindle off an old lathe might be your best bet.

    All the best with your project.



    The Beryl Bloke
    Equipment er.... Projects I own

    Lathes - Sherline 4410 CNC
    Mills - Deckel FP2LB, Hardinge TM-UM, Sherline 2000 CNC.

  14. #14
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    Sorry for slow reply, I've been away.

    Quote Originally Posted by cba_melbourne View Post
    Have a good look at the German Wabeco lathes. They offer two models in CNC outfit. The smaller one is their lathe with a bed made of two round bars - it lends itself by nature quite well to being CNC'ed. The larger has the prismatic bed. Generally, Wabeco lathes are from scratch up designed to be both manual and CNC lathes. They were among the first maker to offer CNC hobbylathes and mills many years ago.There is now also an importer in Australia.

    Yes Wabeco are expensive, but not excessively expensive, and what you are proposing to cobble together would be just as expensive too. One big difference is, a used Wabeco will always sell for a good price regardless the age. A homemade lathe, particularly if you stick to the not so good idea of using rhs sections, is an instant write-off. It makes no sense to me to use expensive spindles and linear slides on a lathe based on rhs steel. If money matters, I would rather suggest you keep looking Australian ebay, I have recently seen things like small Demco CNC lathes and Hercus CNC lathes popping up for real cheap. Sure you got to toss the obsolete stepper motors and electronics, but at least the underlying machines are sound and ready to accept new CNC gear. There also was once a small EMCO CNC machine (compact 5CNC) back in the early 90's, mostly used at schools to demonstrate CNC , and this is still today a cheap base for upgraded new electronics and steppers.

    Personally, I wonder why you are after a light CNC hobbylathe.... I could understand the desire for a light CNC mill much better. Anyway, that is your choice. But have a look at the Tormach site too, I think they also do a CNC lathe, a bit heavier that hobby-grade though.
    Thanks for the suggestion. The Wabecos start at $15,000. You are right they are designed for both manual and CNC use. I find it a very strange product as I can see no point in having change gears when you have CNC. I think they are a manual lathe with CNC tacked on designed to appeal to those more familiar / comfortable with manual machining.
    My design will cost nothing close to that. It's surprising how little CNC components cost now.
    I have converted a bench top mill to CNC.

    Quote Originally Posted by twopintsplease View Post
    Out interest what did you find lacking In the 7X20 that you converted ? steppers and Mach3 or Linux CNC

    Have look at Simon and Nigel's site they have some machines for sale, for conversion or out of the box read to go

    http://www.benchtopcnc.com.au/for_sale.html

    I was converting a PC160 to Steppers and Mach3 but was lucky enough to find a PC 200, 8 tool turret, servo motors, ball screws, hardened ways ,conversational programing, quiet good thing. the PC160 conversion is on hold for awhile
    I converted with steppers and LinuxCNC.
    The greatest problem is yaw in the Z (long) axis. I've driven the carriage from the back, and when I change directions then is visible yaw as the carriage is not properly constrained, which results in the tool moving. If I cut towards the chuck, then move back away it will result in cutting whilst moving away also.
    The fit and finish is terrible. I could spend many many hours improving it and get a reasonable machine at the end, but it would still be a 50kg machine all up.
    Out of the box the lathe was rubbish with a compound that bound in one direction and was loose in the other, half nuts that didn't close properly etc.
    The headstock gears and motor pulley have also destroyed themselves at various times.

    Thanks for the link to the PC160s. I had seen some info about them and PC200s. I'd felt the PC160 was a bit small. I didn't see any for sale when I looked previously.
    The PC200 looks fairly similar to what I am aiming for.
    I'll get in touch with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    If/when I go down this path I'll be doing what Ray suggests and finding an old machine, gutting it and rebuilding it with modern controllers etc with better amateur and enthusiast support. There's relatively few people like Ray and myself still around who were trained in the days of discrete electronics and could repair the old boards now anyway, and that situation will only get worse as time marches on.

    Personally I think the OP is on a hiding to nothing in building a lathe from the ground up, at least something that would be useful. There's no doubt it can be done, but the money spent will be completely trashed as the net value when complete will be virtually zero. At least if a small existing commercial machine is rebuilt there's a good chance you may recover some or even all of your component costs if sold on with functioning modern controllers. I appreciate the difficulties of a rental situation, but personally I'd rather overcome those logistics rather than tip a few grand down the drain. But whatever floats your boat I guess.
    I had looked quite extensively for a second hand machine to update / retrofit. There seems to be a gap between very small light duty machines and full size production machines. I want something in between.
    Resale value doesn't overly worry me.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapatap View Post
    It will be interesting to see what some of those machines go for. I was at an auction earlier this year that had 3 hitachi seki HT20R lathes. 2 were about the same vintage as the ones coming up at the grays auction. They both had 6Meter bar feeders and they went for $1000 each, a hobbyist got one. The same bloke also got a Haas VF2 mill for $1500. I would be seriously looking at a CNC lathe or mill but I bought another tractor a week before the auction was listed, so I'm a bit poor now.

    Back on topic. pippin if you are really serious about building a good little lathe I would go with option 1. If you are turning small parts the 6000-8000 top speed will really help. If you use a manual lathe spindle you wont get the rpm. Have you just tried the internet for A2-4 chucks or have you talked to any of the major tool suppliers? A lot of that sort of stuff you have to ring them and talk to them to get P&A. If you cant get a A2-4 chuck you could make a adapter to go to a camlock spindle nose. We had one on a Cnc lathe at work once, It was pretty crap we ended up taking it off. the other way is to make a backing plate that bolts onto the spindle and then bolt the chuck to that. that's how we mount a 3 jaw chuck to one of the lathes at work, and it works pretty well. RC has a good point about the bit of rhs, its highly stressed and is going to move in ways you never even thought of when you start taking material off it (I know this from experience).I would get it stress relived before you machine it. I also think you will have rigidity issues using it as a bed for your lathe, I know I have had issues machining RHS that size before, but if you fill the rhs with epoxy granite you will have a pretty rigid machine. I will be keen to see how your build goes.
    I'd love to pick up a solid second hand CNC lathe and do a retrofit. Size / weight make it impossible at this stage. Hopefully in some years time.
    I'm aware RHS is stressed and requires stress relieving. The plan is stress relieved, fill with epoxy granite, then top machined flat with mounting holes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theberylbloke View Post
    Hi pippin88,

    You might already be aware that SHS is not exactly straight as it comes from the supplier. That applies to pretty much all structural steel as the specs it is made to (and the use to which it is put) don't require heaps of accuracy. With that in mind, you might want to get critical areas of your SHS machined to be parallel and/or square. Doing so probably will help prevent twisting and or alignment problems with your rails etc. That might cost a couple hundred dollar at the start but it might prevent the same amount in frustration later. Filling it with granite epoxy is a good idea.

    Someone mentioned the tormach 15SL CNC lathe and that would be one of my choices in this size of lathe, I think they start at about USD $11,500. Not all CNC conversions of manual lathes end up a kludge. Babbin Machine do a very nice CNC conversion of a Hardinge HLV-H. I am guessing that both of these lathes are out of your price range (mine too at the moment!)

    Raiding a spindle off an old lathe might be your best bet.

    All the best with your project.

    The Beryl Bloke
    Yep, steel is certainly not straight or flat in any sense of the words from the supplier. I'm currently building a router and doing self levelling epoxy pours to deal with this. I plan to get the lathe steel machined. A couple of local machine shops have indicated it should be a cheap job.

    The Tormach is a nice looking machine, but out of my price range. Once you add import costs etc it's looking at $15,000 I'd say, which is probably 5x what this build will cost.



    Perhaps I should have made something clear at the start of the thread. Playing with toys in my shed is my hobby. I derive nothing but enjoyment from my machines. I don't earn any income, or need them to do any work for any other aspect of my life. I occasionally make presents and other things for around the house, but mainly I enjoy tinkering and building machines. I enjoy designing and tackling problems. Like some others on here, the machines themselves are my hobby more than anything else.

    I have spent months searching and reading. I haven't found a ready-made solution that fills what I want. There are small CNC lathes available, new they are rather expensive for what they offer. They are also quite small, mostly in the size range of a mini lathe. There doesn't seem to be much between those and a full production size CNC lathe.
    I don't want to convert a manual machine because I've done it before, and I think it's a kludge. It certainly can be done, and can be done well, but can be a right pain. So I decided to build a machine with components that are made for CNC.
    At the end of the day, I'll be happy if I can build a working machine and look at it and say that I designed and built that.

  15. #15
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    Just out of interest, that parts only CNC lathe sold for $19... but then you have $125 loading fee, and GST etc... then transport costs.. still after all that it would be a cheap starting point.

    http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0061-...n-wingfield-sa

    For my money, I'd be looking for something a bit more mechanically sound but with dead electronics.

    Some of the other CNC lathes went pretty cheap...

    Ray

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