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  1. #1
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    Default So Where To Next, The Motor Rewinder?

    Here is the ASEA 2 pole 3 phase Star wound motor from the Hercus No.1 tool and cutter grinder. I need to have the thing wired in Delta configuration. It is certainly a marked contrast to Simon's motor as far as clarity goes. http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...07#post1562507

    The varnish on mine looks like spit and is copious in its application. The red wire disappears under the copper and the brown wire, while visible ends up buried in the copper also. The bandage like tape lashing looks a bit trickier to unravel and replace than the twine on Simon's. I could have a dig around but I don't want to stuff things up.

    I have never dealt with any rewinders here in Perth. Any suggestions about digging or rewinders? The housing minus the rotor is light hence postable. The tool capital or anywhere else is not too far away.

    Bob.

    008 (Large).JPG099 (Large).JPG105 (Large).JPG109 (Large).JPG110 (Large).jpg111 (Large).JPG

    Simon's motor.

    2012-10-09_13-24-54_650.jpg


    ps. Alan ( C-47) was the place you went to out near FJ Sweetman's ???

  2. #2
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    Default

    i just had the delta connections dug out on an old pope motor for a conversion for my horizontal mill project cost $100 but they had to dig very deep to find them apparently who was i to argue
    john

  3. #3
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    I done a couple of motors Bob, do you want me to take a look?
    On the first motor I found the common point on the second connection I looked at, on the second one it was the 5th connection, hopefully there's not some sort of progression here.
    I also have the fibreglass tubing, nylon cord and hi temp silicone to patch up afterwards, high temp silicone covered wires to make the delta wire connectors and silver brazing wire, plus meters and megger to check everything along the way - you can borrow or we can have a crack at it together?

  4. #4
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    Another option is to contact these guys - http://www.roycecross.com.au/
    It may be cheaper to buy a new motor that muck around with that one (sad as that may be). Last time I had a motor looked at I was told that they would not bother fault finding the reason it would not work as expected because it was cheaper to cut the windings off and replace with new. That was a 4HP motor but the same may apply. Having said that I can ask the question at my motor rewinders.

    Michael

  5. #5
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    Hi BT,

    The star point is the junction that the wires from the terminal block DON'T go to.. so follow the wires from the terminal block and eliminate the junctions that they lead to, then look for the one that you didn't eliminate.

    When you find it, split out the three wires and run seperate wires back to the terminal block,

    1. Use high temperature wire. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10AWG-Sil...item35ccdbdd56
    2. Silver solder wires... not soft solder 45% silver rods work fine.
    3. Use fibreglass sleeving, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VIDAFLEX-...item2a14e8552a
    4. Use Nylon lacing http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Gudebrod-...item5d48b897d0
    5. When it's all tied down neatly use motor winding varnish to re-seal everything. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RED-INSUL...item1c37ba48e0

    In my case I call up the SIL, and say.. how would you like a slab? http://www.ourcellar.com.au/p/6209/v...bbies+Case+24+

    Ray

    PS.. I can post you some wire, lacing and varnish if you'd like...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    I done a couple of motors Bob, do you want me to take a look?
    On the first motor I found the common point on the second connection I looked at, on the second one it was the 5th connection, hopefully there's not some sort of progression here.
    I also have the fibreglass tubing, nylon cord and hi temp silicone to patch up afterwards, plus megger to check everything along the way - you can borrow we can have a crack at it together?
    Together. When is a good time?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Hi BT,

    The star point is the junction that the wires from the terminal block DON'T go to.. so follow the wires from the terminal block and eliminate the junctions that they lead to, then look for the one that you didn't eliminate.

    When you find it, split out the three wires and run seperate wires back to the terminal block,

    1. Use high temperature wire. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10AWG-Sil...item35ccdbdd56
    2. Silver solder wires... not soft solder 45% silver rods work fine.
    3. Use fibreglass sleeving, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VIDAFLEX-...item2a14e8552a
    4. Use Nylon lacing http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Gudebrod-...item5d48b897d0
    5. When it's all tied down neatly use motor winding varnish to re-seal everything. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RED-INSUL...item1c37ba48e0

    In my case I call up the SIL, and say.. how would you like a slab? http://www.ourcellar.com.au/p/6209/v...bbies+Case+24+

    Ray

    PS.. I can post you some wire, lacing and varnish if you'd like...
    Hi Ray,

    You replied while I was one fingering my reply to Bob. The hurdle is the bloody varnish. It's thick. I reckon it will need scalpeling off.

    BT

  8. #8
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    Edit: Oh crap. I obviously type much too slowlly. RayG had already said everything I did by the time I was finished...

    Hi Bob.
    You are actually NOT interested where the coloured wires go.
    You need to look for an insulation sleeve WITHOUT cables going in - just 'some copper'.
    You then carefully slice that open wth a razorblade or hobby knife or a scalpel blade and look for 3 copper wires joint in a little ball of copper. They are usually twisted together tightly near the joint. This is the El Dorado. You prise the thressome out a little an cut off the ball, carefully untwist the wires - which are stuck yo the sleeve and each other by winding laquer or even epoxy. Then clean the new wire ends to bare copper and twist on some nice flexible - maybe silicon insulated - leads and silversolder the together and sleeve seperately. You can then epoxy them back to the motor winmgs and lead them out to the terminal block. The pros will melt the copper ends together but I wouldn't attampt that here, since you won't get the ends out very far. In fact, you may resort to soft soldering in this motor. That's OK too, just not best practice. You just have to be sure you epoxy the wires and cables near the joint so that they can't move - particularly not vibrate!
    A good candidate for this joint is marked with a blue arrow in the attached photo. That sleeve looks fatter than the others and I cn't see any cables going in. Have another closer look.
    Given that the entire winding is doused in epoxy by the looks of it, you can just cut through the bindings there and not replace them. It looks very solid. Not a good thing for this purpose, I'm afraid - even for a rewinder, if you have to go that way.
    111 (Large).jpg
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  9. #9
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post


    A good candidate for this joint is marked with a blue arrow in the attached photo. That sleeve looks fatter than the others and I cn't see any cables going in. Have another closer look.
    Given that the entire winding is doused in epoxy by the looks of it, you can just cut through the bindings there and not replace them. It looks very solid. Not a good thing for this purpose, I'm afraid - even for a rewinder, if you have to go that way.
    Thanks for the lead Joe, we'll try that one first and if it doesn't contain the common point I can blame you!

    One thing has me puzzled, what do you reckon the grey wire in the terminal box is for?

  10. #10
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    Have you tried just running it as is?
    I have a large lathe and run a 2hp motor still wired as star on a 240V VFD. It has enough Hp for the work I do now.
    Will take 100 thou plus at 700 rpm in steel. Lathe was originally 7.5 HP.
    If I find it lacking in the future then I will change to delta.
    Dave

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    One thing has me puzzled, what do you reckon the grey wire in the terminal box is for?
    Hi Bob,

    WRT the grey wire, is it just a single wire? The 3 PH motor I used for my bandsaw VFD conversion had two extra wires. They were internally connected via a thermal switch. I ran power to the VFD through those wires as a kinda thermal cutout. But, like I said, you need 2 wires for that. My other question is where is the earth wire?

    Edit: When I did that motor (my first star to delta conversion) It took me two cuts before I found the star point. I looked for the fibre sheath which had 2 wires go in and one wire come out. I also must confess to only using normal solder and cable tied the wires back together! So far so good. The 3 HP motor does not even get warm on my mill.

    Cheers,

    Simon
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  12. #12
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    Default Motor rewind place

    Bob,
    The place is New Era Electrics, 28-30 McDowell St, Kewdale, have had good service and prices from them in the past. I'll send you a mud map also.
    Alan

  13. #13
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    If no-one beats me to it again:
    Turn over the little label on the grey wire. I think it's marked N (for Neutral). This is pretty rare to have that brought out in 3-phase motors. However if it is, that goes to the STAR POINT!!!!! If it is labelled N, confirm that by measuring the resistance between it and the other three connections. They should all be the same, whereas the resistance between any two of the three-phase connetors should be double that.
    So you may be able to trace it and if not, make your self a little VERY fine and sharp probe for a multimeter out of a fine sewing machine needle or a (sterile) diabetic's syring needle. Both are sharp enough to poke through insulation and both are fine enough not to leave a hole. You can then connect the mutlimeter in continuity or resistance mode to the grey cable and poke into the insulation sleeves in the windings instead of cutting them open.
    Good luck (with what you find on the wire tag and with your search for the elusive star point!
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  14. #14
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    If no-one beats me to it again:
    Turn over the little label on the grey wire. I think it's marked N (for Neutral). This is pretty rare to have that brought out in 3-phase motors. However if it is, that goes to the STAR POINT!!!!! If it is labelled N, confirm that by measuring the resistance between it and the other three connections. They should all be the same, whereas the resistance between any two of the three-phase connetors should be double that.
    So you may be able to trace it and if not, make your self a little VERY fine and sharp probe for a multimeter out of a fine sewing machine needle or a (sterile) diabetic's syring needle. Both are sharp enough to poke through insulation and both are fine enough not to leave a hole. You can then connect the mutlimeter in continuity or resistance mode to the grey cable and poke into the insulation sleeves in the windings instead of cutting them open.
    Good luck (with what you find on the wire tag and with your search for the elusive star point!
    That's what I was hoping

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonl View Post
    My other question is where is the earth wire?
    Below the blanking plug in the first picture(you can just see is on the left of the terminal block).

    Why would someone want a single wire running to the star point?

    Stuart

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