Thread: Winter condensation and rust

Hi

I think I have found a solution.

Apply some oil to your milling table or whatever you wish to protect - get hold of some GLAD WRAP , the stuff supermarkets sell . Lay the wrap onto the oily table , and it will insulate the metal from the cold air . It works for me . Lathe ways can be protected with this method.. and the cling wrap is very cheap

Mike

Lanotec lanolin spray also works wonders. It drys like wax and is excellent rust preventative. Simply spray with wd40 to clean it off. I trust it with my milling table and everything in my garage rusted until I used this stuff. I got onto it from the PM forum, amongst the recommendations of ATF fluid.. Never looked back and it smells so darn good!

lanotech for me too

Yes the Lano stuff is good but I am a cheapskate and the cling wrap is easy to buy anywhere in any supermarket ... Mike

Originally Posted by morrisman

Hi

I think I have found a solution.

Apply some oil to your milling table or whatever you wish to protect - get hold of some GLAD WRAP , the stuff supermarkets sell . Lay the wrap onto the oily table , and it will insulate the metal from the cold air . It works for me . Lathe ways can be protected with this method.. and the cling wrap is very cheap

Mike

Mike trouble is its messy and some hassle to remove/re-apply. So it has the effect that one postpones using the lathe or mill. I had so far very good results with small low voltage electric cartridge heaters, something like 15W each. I mounted one each at the headstock and tailstock base of the Hercus 260 Lathe. Inside the lathe cabinet I have a box, containing a transformer to feed the heaters, and an old wall mount room thermostat (as used for electric floor heating). I set the thermostat to turn on the heaters, whenever ambient temperature drops below 16C. When not used, I cover the lathe with an old bed linen which keeps dust off, and keeps the warmth in. In practice, the metal parts need only be a couple degrees warmer than the air, to totally prevent condensation. And whenever I have a little job to do, just rip the linen cover off and do it, no need to first clean off oil or lanolin then carefully re-apply. Works well for me in Melboune, but there may be other places / conditions where more needs be done to prevent rust. hris

Hi Mike,

I get this problem during winter as well, Chris's idea of small low wattage heaters seems like a step in the right direction, you only need to keep the temperature above the dew point to stop condensation, how much heating is required is probably a matter for some experimentation. The BOM has dew point data, but I'm not sure how applicable it would be to a specific location. Latest Weather Observations for the Melbourne Area

Also the amount of heating required is going to vary depending on how well insulated the workshop is.. I'd think if you could stop the temperature from going below 10-15 degrees at the machine that would probably be sufficient.


Regards
Ray

Originally Posted by RayG

I'd think if you could stop the temperature from going below 10-15 degrees at the machine that would probably be sufficient.

This is one of those "There are two ways to do this; the easy way and ..." situations.
At one stage I worked at a place that made evaporative air conditioners, and had to work up a whole bunch of equations for calculating things like dew point (the temperature that water will condense out of the air). The aim of anti-condensation heating is just to keep vulnerable surfaces a few degrees above dew point. There seem to be people in the UK writing to magazines like MEW all the time complaining about or suggesting solutions for this issue, so anyone with a good solution could potentially make a profit from it.

The easy way
Keep the temperature at some level - say 10 to 15 degrees and hope that works (some adjustment of that range may be needed depending on local conditions).

The not as easy way
Using some basic psychometric equations, get a cluey electronics type to make up a "condenso-stat" that would use a temperature sensor + humidity sensor to calculate the dew point and turn on heaters when within say 3 degrees of that temperature.

The benefit would be less power consumption - I find here that although we have chilly nights there are fewer nights where things get cold enough to have condensation form - it depends on how much moisture is in the air at the time.

Alas! I can not think of a computer/ electronics whiz with international experience who would benefit from making up a box like this.

Michael
(Ray, let me know if you want those equations)

good ventilation in and around your equipment also greatly reduces the ability for condensation to form.
try not to use sealing barriers such as tarps, plastics etc
instead use linen and just drape it over...dont wrap it up.

If you experience condensation droplets falling from your roof use a tarp or plastic cover well above your machine (say a foot or so above) to protect it from water, as this still allows ventilation under it

and something some of you may not be aware off...a lot of oils have an great affinity for moisture, and if say you have used a type which is really thirsty to protect your gear, this may actually become a cause for concern later.

Originally Posted by eskimo

good ventilation in and around your equipment also greatly reduces the ability for condensation to form.
try not to use sealing barriers such as tarps, plastics etc
instead use linen and just drape it over...dont wrap it up.

If you experience condensation droplets falling from your roof use a tarp or plastic cover well above your machine (say a foot or so above) to protect it from water, as this still allows ventilation under it

and something some of you may not be aware off...a lot of oils have an great affinity for moisture, and if say you have used a type which is really thirsty to protect your gear, this may actually become a cause for concern later.

Did read or hear some time ago about spraying bed ways slides with Mr Sheen, a furniture wipe over spray. Never tried it.Any one ever heard of that before? j A.

Originally Posted by Michael G

This is one of those "There are two ways to do this; the easy way and ..." situations.
At one stage I worked at a place that made evaporative air conditioners, and had to work up a whole bunch of equations for calculating things like dew point (the temperature that water will condense out of the air). The aim of anti-condensation heating is just to keep vulnerable surfaces a few degrees above dew point. There seem to be people in the UK writing to magazines like MEW all the time complaining about or suggesting solutions for this issue, so anyone with a good solution could potentially make a profit from it.

The easy way
Keep the temperature at some level - say 10 to 15 degrees and hope that works (some adjustment of that range may be needed depending on local conditions).

The not as easy way
Using some basic psychometric equations, get a cluey electronics type to make up a "condenso-stat" that would use a temperature sensor + humidity sensor to calculate the dew point and turn on heaters when within say 3 degrees of that temperature.

The benefit would be less power consumption - I find here that although we have chilly nights there are fewer nights where things get cold enough to have condensation form - it depends on how much moisture is in the air at the time.

Alas! I can not think of a computer/ electronics whiz with international experience who would benefit from making up a box like this.

Michael
(Ray, let me know if you want those equations)

Thanks Michael, you've started some wheels turning, that I may be unable to stop.... the availabilty of low cost RH sensors might be the key that makes this idea a cost effective option...

So, in answer to the question, yes I'd like to see the equations..

Regards
Ray

Originally Posted by j.ashburn

Did read or hear some time ago about spraying bed ways slides with Mr Sheen, a furniture wipe over spray. Never tried it.Any one ever heard of that before? j A.

Furniture polishing sprays are usually silicon based so may be an option. I have issues with this as well at the moment. My problem with glad wrap is that it will hide potential problems. If only I had to protect one flat surface. I used a fan to dry my lathe last weekend. In vineyards large solar powered fans are used to control frost along with gas heaters I believe. It is an ongoing problem.

Dean

Originally Posted by RayG

Thanks Michael, you've started some wheels turning, that I may be unable to stop.... the availabilty of low cost RH sensors might be the key that makes this idea a cost effective option...

So, in answer to the question, yes I'd like to see the equations..

Regards
Ray

Another option is to lower the room's dewpoint. I see on eBay (item3382910648) low cost (around $50) dehumidifiers based on the Peltier element principle. These can remove some 300mL water overnight. The power consumption is rather high at 50W, so it would need some sort of low cost Hygrostat to only turn on if RH exceeds say 90%.

This idea could be combined with machine heating: the warm side of the Peltier element could be used to warm the lathe bed or mill table, the cold side to dehumidify the air. Peltier elements can be bought cheap, then it takes a few good ideas how to best combine this into a practical machine heater/dryer. Someone could even make a diy kit of it.... just brainstorming....

Chris

Hi Chris, the concept I have in mind is a single board PCB, something like this one perhaps Advancer Ethernet Development Board ENC28J60 NET Webpages Control Applications | eBay with a web interface.

Configuration and remote monitoring could be web based

A small adaptor board would be required to interface to temperature and RH sensors, with appropriate interface and power supply circuitry, the actual sensors would need to be closely coupled to actual machine temperature, one of these sensors could be mounted in some convenient spot on the machine AM1001 Resistance Temperature Humidity Sensor Module 20 90 RH | eBay


The output is simply driving an externally mounted SSR which switches a small 240V fan heater on and off as required.

So it's a simple temperature controller at it's heart, but the setpoint is driven by the atmospheric conditions including relative humidity with the primary objective of maintaining machine temperature above the dew point.

I can't see it costing much more than $50, not counting the cost of the heater..

Regards
Ray

PS... I would make the software open source. so the whole project could be open.

Originally Posted by RayG

Hi Chris, the concept SNIP cost of the heater..

Yeah thats pretty much what I thought

I use oil and glad wrap on any jigs that will be in the draw for 12 months between uses and things like my MT5 test bar.

I also have some of these and my "measuring" draw.
2X Silica GEL Desiccant Moisture 4 Absorb BOX Reusable | eBay
I have no real idea how much good they do. I worked out they hold about 10ml of water, only to relieze that on its own that doesnt really tell me much.

Stuart

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Yeah thats pretty much what I thought

I use oil and glad wrap on any jigs that will be in the draw for 12 months between uses and things like my MT5 test bar.

I also have some of these and my "measuring" draw.
2X Silica GEL Desiccant Moisture 4 Absorb BOX Reusable | eBay
I have no real idea how much good they do. I worked out they hold about 10ml of water, only to relieze that on its own that doesnt really tell me much.

Stuart

Thanks Stuart you can buy a fan heater from Hardly Normal for $20 for when you run out of dessicant....

Regards
Ray