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3rd Nov 2011, 10:00 PM #1
Chinese quality versus Swiss quality
Hi All,
Here's a good read on the detailed differences in quality between a chinese made DTI and a swiss made one.
As the guy says in the article, you get what you pay for...
Swiss Quality Discount
Thanks to Phil for the link to that site.
Regards
Ray
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3rd Nov 2011, 10:31 PM #2Member
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Makes interesting reading, sort of shows us what we more or less know, but cannot quantify.
Thanks for the link.
Mick.
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4th Nov 2011, 07:03 AM #3Philomath in training
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Not sure about that review. As the reviewer sells one of the items there is definitely potential for bias. Looking at the photos present I suspect that the Shars unit has a die cast body - which if you have the volume is a perfectly legitimate way of making parts. At one stage comparison is made between the close fit of the dial on the Shars unit to the looser fit of the Swiss unit. I'm sure if the fits were the other way round it would be the "sloppy tolerances" versus the "precision fit"
The one thing that is not mentioned in the review is the accuracy of the indicators. It's probably safe to assume that (at least in a new condition) they are comparable.
Having said all that, I'd probably opt for the more expensive because I like to buy tools for durability in the long term.
As was said at the top of the review and we all need to remember there is good Chinese stuff out there. I have a 4x6" bandsaw that I bought from Ozmestore which I think is top notch - the only thing that lets it down are the blades, and that's because I TIG weld them together myself. I must put a twist in them or something, but I'm getting better at it.
Michael
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4th Nov 2011, 12:58 PM #4Most Valued Member
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Michael, if you have time, would you be interested in starting a new thread and documenting how you TIG weld the blades together? I've had a play with doing it, but haven't had a lot of success. I understand it helps to anneal the body of the blade after welding to reduce the brittleness and tendency to snap, but just the same I can't claim to have much success with either TIGing or silver soldering them.
Pete
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4th Nov 2011, 03:24 PM #5Most Valued Member
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I've got a blade welder on my big bandsaw and you definitely need to anneal the weld when finished. Hitting the weld button a few times seems to work.
The devil is in knowing just how *many* times to hit the button and for how long.
It's easier to buy the blades made to length from a shop with all the gear IMO. I've given up welding my own.
PDW
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4th Nov 2011, 03:56 PM #6Banned
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Sorry Ray.
I’m going to Highjack your thread. This seems as good a title as I would have used any way.
Jayson from Horsham, sent me a P.M asking about what I thought about those Swiss levels, verses the MX ones. I’m dragging the discussion out here in the open, so we can all kick it around.
This is this Swiss Tesa / Wyler level that I stumbled on. Screaming good price at $198 USD plus $29 USD freight. $227 USD, lets call that $218 Aus dollars today. You could buy one of those here from the Australian agent. http://www.acmlab.com.au/products/ , but you wouldn’t get change out of $1200 bucks.
http://www.swissqualitydiscount.com/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=41&osCsid=9e92a768f838f0f9c1374985c38390b8
Here’s the closest thing I could find in MX brand. $185.90 plus $12 freight to Horsham. $197.90
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Q205#tabs
Now those levels aren’t the same. The Swiss one is 0.04/m. The MX is 0.02/m The Swiss one is 150mm long, the MX one is 200mm long. Quality, well the Swiss one is Swiss. The MX one is?
I’m looking at the features of the MX one, how does this work?
· Accuracy higher than DIN877
· Flatness of the base less than 0.005mm
Anyway, Jayson wants to know what he should do. Please discuss. He also needs a 0.01 dial test indicator. I’ll get onto that next.
Phil.
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4th Nov 2011, 04:41 PM #7Most Valued Member
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Hi,
Well we know the answer to that one. lol We really should have taken some "before" pictures.
Phil bring up something I have been meaning to say in this thread. I dont really care about quality as long as it is reflected in the price. If I buy a DTI from China for $30(it came with a stand which is what I was after) and well lets be nice and say "its not the best" I'm fine with that. If I buy a COMPAC 245A DTI for $100 and its great I'm fine with that also. When I pay $185 for a level that turns out to be, again being nice "not the best", then I'm not happy!
Starting to sound like a "we are being ripped off buying from Australia" post. I wonder what a COMPAC 245A DTI would cost locally?
As far as what Jayson should do? Maybe buy a $50 Shars level and take it around to Phils place . Though if I had my time again and knew I could get a good one for $200 I'd go with that.
Stuart
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4th Nov 2011, 05:22 PM #8Pink 10EE owner
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well $158 + postage at the moment (I wonder if they changed the price since this thread started).. So $170 versus $228 for the Tesa
Nearly $60 difference...
I suppose the first question is..... What is the level to be used for... Measuring wear or just machine levelling...
If it is levelling then the actual accuracy of the vial become less important as your aim is to get the bubble in the same spot all along the way you are measuring...
If you are measuring wear then the accuracy of the vial become very important.. You want a vial that is ground uniformly as you are relying on the bubble movement for you to calculate the rise/run and to plot the wear on a graph for when you are doing your machine inspection...
Another point is resale value..... The measuremax will probably retain a lot of it's value... The Wyler with a more obscure name (in hobbyist circles) would probably have less willing buyers...
Along with the Wyler being 6" long sort of means you will need some ground parallels to rest it on when in use... Not an issue sometimes, other times it can be..
I do not think there is a straight out correct answer to the question...Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.
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4th Nov 2011, 05:29 PM #9Most Valued Member
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That's a screaming good price Phil, if I didn't already have a precision level I'd be all over that like a fat kid on a smartie!
Since you invited discussion on the topic, regarding the accuracy of the Chinese level, I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and wonder if they can indeed claim that accuracy (which is really in how the the vial is ground), without the base necessarily being especially flat, as the 2 are really quite different criteria. By that I mean, take it to the extreme and pretend the base of the level wasn't flat at all, but instead 3 points. Place the "level" with 3 points on a "flat" surface like a surface plate and tilt that surface by the amount you mentioned and the level will indeed move the appropriate 1 division. Of course in real life use if the base isn't level and it's used on a surface that isn't "flat" then the thing is never going to repeat properly and its accuracy won't be worth 2 squirts until the base is made flat.
That's my take on it anyway. Grinding the vials to this level of precision is no mean feat and I've often wondered about the linearity of my level. It would be quite straight forward to check it, but since I use mine more for relative comparison rather than absolute measurement per se, I've never really felt the need to check it beyond reversing it.
On a more general theme, I think the main thing with Swiss v Chinese is that I pretty much feel that I can trust the Swiss straight out of the box. If the QA card says that's it accuracy, then I fully expect that is indeed the accuracy. Personally I don't think the test cards sent out with Chinese tools are worth the paper they're printed on and I would never blindly trust what they say without confirming it for myself, and with some tools that's very difficult for us to do in a home shop.
Pete
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4th Nov 2011, 06:05 PM #10Dave J Guest
Thanks for the link Ray.
I agree with Stuart about comparing a $30 Chinese one against the Swiss one.
As for the 0.02 CTC levels I checked mine on top of a strait edge and after leveling it I put a .02 shim at a meter, and it moved one graduation, so they are true in that sense.
As for the base I flatness I have not checked it, but wouldn't be surprised if it's out a bit.
Dave
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4th Nov 2011, 06:11 PM #11Most Valued Member
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I can confirm the vial appears to be pretty good on my level*. Here is a picture of my level on parallels 130mm apart from outside to inside edges. Alum foil is 0.015mm as best I can measure.
1000/130=7.6923
7.6923x0.015=0.1154
0.1154/0.02=5.77 divisions
Top foil under left side.
Middle no foil.
Right foil under right side.
Stuart
*the biggest problem I have with Chinese stuff is one can be great, the next can be rubbish. I bought a vernier for the tailstock DRO and its pretty good for the money, I bought another from the same guy and it curves about 5mm along its length lol seems to work ok
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4th Nov 2011, 06:19 PM #12Banned
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4th Nov 2011, 06:24 PM #13Most Valued Member
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I was going to check mine precisely the way Dave checked his as I think that would be a very accurate way of checking it, especially if it's rotated end for end. However I would be interested in not only checking the first division, but inserting multiple shims of the appropriate thickness (most lively feeler gauges) under the end of the level and checking each division was linear. I don't know, but I have a gut feeling it won't be linear. Of course if should be, but I don't know ... just a gut feeling it won't be. I really must try it to satisfy my curiosity.
Stuart, I agree, buying Chinese is a real crap-shoot. The problem is their QC is basically zero, so one person can get something that's fine, the next one will be rubbish. I treat them all like a kit and so long as I've paid the appropriate amount of money then that's fine. Mind you there's some things I don't go cheap with; drills, taps, and measurement tools. My "go to" DTI is a Compac. I'd like another so if anyone sees one on ebay cheap don't buy it ... you will hate them
Pete
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4th Nov 2011, 07:26 PM #14future machinist
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while we are talking levels has anyone ever heard of the brand EDA made in France.
BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE
Andre
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4th Nov 2011, 07:29 PM #15
No contest, the Tesa is a steal at that price. Still cheap at twice that price. (EDIT: the assumption is of course that the application requires the additional level (pun) of quality..)
I won't dare mention my el-cheapo Chinese Shars in the same sentence as Tesa...
As far as DTI's go, I have a Dorsey, which is too sensitive for 90% of what I need to do, and the 0.01 DTI's I've got, while they are branded Mitutoyo, I suspect they are fakes...
I'm thinking of this one Swiss Quality Discount
With that nice little Etalon mag base...
Regards
Ray
PS.. Of course we could always get .RC to buy them for us, he seems to have the knack
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