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Thread: Metal files 101

  1. #106
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    Has anyone had any experience with a file that has a "chip-breaker" for breaking up the chips from sticky metals (alum, lead etc)?
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    Interesting discussion, I like how a seemingly simple subject, like files, can get so deep, there are more rabbit holes here that it seems at first glance.

    Here is a picture of file cutting at the Cyclops Works in Sheffield 1914-1918, it was published as a series of postcards by Cammell Laird for sale with the proceeds going to the Red Cross war effort during WW1.



    File Cutting at the Cyclops Works Sheffield 1914-1918 by EF Skinner

    So, if you really want to sharpen a file, anneal it and get one of the above machines, re-cut the teeth, and then re-harden it.

    Regards
    Ray

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    Or give to some comely lass and tell her it's for King and Country.

    Seriously, anyone have any idea how such a file cutting machine would work?
    Ok I found a couple of interesting articles here: File Makers. Sadly no illustration seems to have survived.

    Edit: I was mainly interested in whether the teeth were punched or cut. They call it cutting but it's really an upsetting process. Or it was in the late 19thC anyway. And still is in some quarters, eg Mr Liogier. I would like to know what the modern process is.

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    I'll be a monkey's if Liogier can't step in with a wealth of information on the history of files and how they are made.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    From Wiki Answers (re fish hooks):
    After that the hooks go through a process in which a chemical attacks the surface. The thinner parts of the wire are affected and, in particular, the point.
    The chemical smoothes or "eats away" the metal and, in effect, refines the point. This is quite a critical operation because if the chemical sharpening goes on too long it will eventually dull the point and may weaken the barb. Furthermore, if the chemical attacks one side of the point more than the other then the point will be weakened. Finally, it is important to remember that chemical sharpening will not make a weaker point into a strong one. It is more likely to make a suspect point even weaker!
    I wonder what they mean by weaker?
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  6. #111
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    Today's tests:

    File condition as at last night after tests:


    After 15 minutes in straight HCL acid (more bubbles, but not a fizz):


    After 90 minutes:



    And then polished on the spinning wire wheel (Pic 1 repeated at the right for direct comparison). Note that the gullets have not been fully cleaned of the grey residue. This is because the wires are 0.28mm in diameter and the distance between the ridges is 0.59mm (17 ridges per cm). BTW, the file card wires are 0.45mm:



    Using some geometric shapes in an Excel sheet I have determined that the spinning wires will go half way down the gullets (hence all the grey residue in the valleys), but the file card wires will only go less than a quarter of the way in. Hence the file card will only remove particles that almost fill the gullets, and it may not remove the whole particle.

    RIGHT! Now I'm going to leave the bastard of a thing in overnight (will be about 15 hours).

    Lemon Juice (Citric Acid):
    I've just remembered something from many months ago. I was restoring some copper antiques with Lemon Juice that has common Salt dissolved in it (just wipe it over - it's brilliant). Anyway, I left the juice in one of those cheap & cheerful stainless steel food prep bowls, and after a few weeks it had eaten a couple of small holes right through. I'll try that next.
    Last edited by FenceFurniture; 2nd Nov 2011 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Lemon Juice
    Regards, FenceFurniture

  7. #112
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    Mr Furniture, what is it you're trying to prove exactly? I'm looking for the method in your madness but coming up short.

  8. #113
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    And you think you're the first?

    Objective: Are there any benefits to acid "sharpening" as opposed to cleaning?

    Current assumption: Good way to thin files. May have some cleaning effect beyond a rub down with the edge of a timber wedge.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    Well what was the result of the 90 min etch, and how did you evaluate it? Those photos don't really tell us anything.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Those photos don't really tell us anything
    That's coz the result didn't either!
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Has anyone had any experience with a file that has a "chip-breaker" for breaking up the chips from sticky metals (alum, lead etc)?
    Dreadnought or vixen files are used those metals, not sure they have a chipbreaker, Magicut files look like they do. Never paid any attention to the chip though I will now.

    Vixen files(coz I buy Nicholson and heller, if I bought stubs or wiltshire they'd be called dreadnought) work well on the softer metals and on soft steel. Take a bit of getting used to. If you want some I can suggest an ebay seller I've bought a few off.
    Garry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    I was mainly interested in whether the teeth were punched or cut. They call it cutting but it's really an upsetting process. Or it was in the late 19thC anyway. And still is in some quarters, eg Mr Liogier. I would like to know what the modern process is.
    As far as I know (but always willing to learn some more), there are two ways to produce files (apart of milled teeth files of course) :

    - the technique called "cuting" where a punch hit the flat surface of the steel to push up some steel and doing so create the ridge.

    I have put a small video on YouTube showing this cutting operation done by big machines :
    http://youtu.be/DfhoQv2bT-I

    - the technique called "scraping" where you use a "steel comb" (the comb's teeth are very small, in fact the comb has a profile that is negative to the profil of the file you want to obtain). You scrap enough times, and hard and precise enough, the steel comb on the flat surface of the file to obtain the ridges to come up.

    Cutting is used in the vast majority of cases, but scraping, despiste less productive and harder to master, gives better results for some precision files (where the ridges are small, on a curved surface).

    The evolution of the process over the centuries is close to zero, except that now machine are (trying to) doing the job instead of human hands.

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    Default no not atall

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Is that a technique that you use azzrock? Any results?
    no its not my technique. is reach for a sharp file. Time to time you come across a sorce of cheap good file and i stock up.

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    Mr Liogier, thank you for the descriptions, that answers my question very well. Unfortunately I cannot view the video. I get this message:
    This video contains content from EMI, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
    Sorry about that.

  15. #120
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    I tried Canadian and French proxy servers and got the same message(only in French lol)

    Stuart

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