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Thread: Metal files 101

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandad-5 View Post
    I thought I'd report back with the end result for myself and my files.

    Following advice I've received here, I moved all my files to another, larger drawer and lined it. Still to come is some nice little timber dividers. But for now, they don't move around and aren't banging into each other.
    Attachment 184379
    I mentioned earlier that I found some NOS 8" Pferd files for 10 bucks each.
    I had intended to find another 2nd cut 10" file, but I tried some cleaning vinegar on one that I already owned but figured was past it's use by date. It came up a treat so I no longer feel any urgency to buy any more.

    I was going to get some hydrocloric acid, but since I had the vinegar here already, I figured it was worth a go first.
    I was so impressed with it, that as an experiment, I picked up a piece of really rusty steel and left it in the bottle overnight.
    Went out this morning, pulled it out and this is what I found.
    Attachment 184380
    To say I'm impressed is an understatement.

    Only thing left to do is get some decent handles for the files I have, and again due to this thread I looked on Amazon.
    Can't see what I want at a price I can afford just yet, but I'll keep looking.

    Lastly, I learnt here that something I've been doing is all wrong. I've always worked a file like sandpaper. Back and forth. Never realised that action was buggering my files. Hopefully I'll get a lot more life out of my investment in future.

    So, thanks everyone.
    I'm one very happy camper.
    HI GRANDAD. its great to see people enthusiastic about files. Its not like you see people like this every day. a lot of people believe it or not ...Turn there noses up a little regarding files. besides all that i noticed your set of draws that your keeping your little beauties in. very nice. I JUST THINK THAT the file could of got a run at a draw closer to the pent house and not in the basement.
    if i could offer you some advise regarding the use of files. hold your work in a vise suited to your height. if your right handed position your left foot to the lft and slightly in front of the vise. ect ect... you know what i mean. you have to be comfortable with a steady balance over the vise but a little to the rear.. im shore you know all this any way.
    good luck aaron

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    Quote Originally Posted by azzrock View Post
    ... you know what i mean. you have to be comfortable with a steady balance over the vise but a little to the rear.. im shore you know all this any way.
    No, actually, I can't say I knew all of that.
    My experience with metal files really does border on the butchery level.

    Wa-a-a-y back in highschool, in Canada, we had to do a different kind of shop each term. Just to get a taste of all the trades. I quite enjoyed them all, with the exception of metal shop.
    Our project was a small hammer, which I still own today BTW. It involved turning an aluminium handle and fitting it to a steel head that we then tempered. Quite a fascinating little project actually in that it involved a huge number of different skills. All in one little tool.
    But....one of the tasks was to file the head to a dead flat and square surface using a handfile. It was a nightmare for me. More 35 min classes were spent trying to get something close than I care to remember. Each time I thought it was ok, the teacher would put a square up to it and show me where daylight could be seen. I swear, some days after a whole class, it was worse than when I'd started.
    To this day, I struggle with technique.
    Reading these metal forums has taught me a lot.
    But I've got a long way to go.

    Thankyou for your kind comments though.
    Cheers
    Jim

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    i know the feeling about trying to get the job square. Just thinking about it now one job we had to do was. first make a square shaped cast iron block. all to size with square edges. the next part was they gave us some 2" brass round bar that we had to make a cube out of. after that we had to fit the brass cube into the middle of the cast iron block. All with a drill a hack saw but mainly files.
    the point is you can get a great result when using files. once you get the technique right the metal flies of a bit faster as well.
    i seem to remember that how you hold your elbow on the rear hand is important. I believe that keeping it tucked in closed to your body is the way to go.

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    Since I’m a member of this forum, I have received quite some questions about files, and doing so I’ve realised some basic things are not so clear for everybody. Those of you who are already familiar with files won’t learn anything new here.

    First thing first : basically rasps are for shaping wood whereas files are made to work metal. Rasps have teeth, whereas files have ridges (that go continuously from on edge to the other edge of the file).

    The different families of files are : engineers files, saw files, milled teeth files, precision files (and rifflers). When somebody talks about « files », he usualy means « engineers files » (and also sometines saw files).

    The first two families are done the same way, the main difference is that engineers files have two cuts (crossing each other) to increase their bite in order to remove as much material as possible, whereas saw files have just one cut in order to sharpen (usualy) very hard material. The ridges of files are (in most cases) done by the operation called « cutting » (machine made or hand made). This operation looks quite like the one you can see on my video when hand-stitching the rasps, the difference is that you don’t use the same punch : a « grain of barley » shaped punch for rasps, a « scissor » shaped punch for files.

    So now it won’t suprise anybody that Milled teeth files have teeth (« ridges ») that are milled and not cut. It means that files have ridges a few 1/10 mm high (usualy called « bastard » for the coarsest, « second cut » for the medium cut, and « smooth » for the finest cut), whereas milled teeth files have teeth that are mm high (i.e. much bigger).
    Last but not least, to make it (very) simple, precision files are engineers files of higher quality. Few producers in the world can pretend they produce precision files. I think I have enough runs on the board to say that the best one are by far the ones produced by the swiss « Vallorbe ».

    Although I am mostly known for my rasps, I produce some files from time to time. As regards quality, I’m pretty proud about my milled teeth files, but I consider my engineers and saw files to be just OK. By OK I mean that they are much better than the Chinese crap all the big occidental brands are selling, but neither are they as good as the precision files from Vallorbe. (But don’t mixed up with their Vallorbe’s engineers files that have really nothing special).

    OK folks, there is much more to say than this very basic elements but I don’t want to be speaking in the desert (that’s a french expression, not sure it exists in english but I guess you understand what it means). So I’ll go on if there is some people just showing some interest for some more. Of course, feel free to ask questions, I’ll try to answer it the best I can. I think that by now I have visited almost all the files and rasps factories of this world (and I can tell they are much more different brands than different factories).

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    Thank you "Liogier"........Cheers, crowie

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    Great thread, thanks gents

    I've learned a lot in this half hour read
    regards
    Nick
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    Without wood it's just ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liogier View Post
    So I’ll go on if there is some people just showing some interest for some more. Of course, feel free to ask questions, I’ll try to answer it the best I can.
    Bonjour Liogier,
    I'm not sure I have any specific questions that remain unanswered. But then, my needs at the start of this thread were pretty basic, and they appear to have been answered to my satisfaction.
    So perhaps in my case, knowing whether or not you agree/disagree with any of that basic info already given would be beneficial.

    I'm sure there are others however, who are more advanced in the usage of metal files that would appreciate a more in depth look at things.

    I thank you for coming here and sharing with us.

    Cheers
    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liogier View Post
    So now it won’t suprise anybody that Milled teeth files have teeth (« ridges ») that are milled and not cut. It means that files have ridges a few 1/10 mm high (usualy called « bastard » for the coarsest, « second cut » for the medium cut, and « smooth » for the finest cut), whereas milled teeth files have teeth that are mm high (i.e. much bigger).
    Hi Liogier,
    Thanks for the write up. I'm having trouble with this paragraph and want to be sure I'm understanding you. Is my addition *engineers files and saw files* correct?

    "So now it won’t suprise anybody that Milled teeth files have teeth (« ridges ») that are milled and not cut. It means that *engineers files and saw files* have ridges a few 1/10 mm high (usualy called « bastard » for the coarsest, « second cut » for the medium cut, and « smooth » for the finest cut), whereas milled teeth files have teeth that are mm high (i.e. much bigger)."

    Stuart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Is my addition *engineers files and saw files* correct?"
    Yes exactly.

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    I live in an area of France where there used to be around 200 files and rasp workshops during the first part of XXth century. And my grandfather taught me a « game » that these guys were doing back then to know which one were producing the best files. Quite simple game indeed, one could also say savage. If you have two files and wants to know which one is the better one, just take one and file the other with it. The one that will be cutted in two pieces was not the good one !

    More seriously, I don’t pretend to know everything about files and rasps, far from it. Actually I am more just like a violin maker, which gives me some credibility to talk about violin, but when it comes to using it, there is some « violin players » in the world that make me just wide open my eyes and mouth with their incredible skills. And in the end I guess this is the reason why I keep banging on my punches to turn some piece of stupid steel into tools, and keep taking some pride in this.

    To come back on something I have often seen written before, I cannot let say that acids can (re)sharpen a file or a rasp. How come any acid that « eat » steel could do that ? Morever, the first part that will be attacked by the acid is the part with greater surface and lesser material, which is precisely the edge of the teeth. So acids will do just the opposite of sharpening (sorry for not knowing the proper word for that).

    What could happen is that it will eat first what has remained inside the teeth, which is, by definition a softer material. This brutal cleaning operation is a dangerous game, because the heat-treatment that is protecting the teeth will not resist for ever. It would be a bit like setting fire (the acid) to a forest (the file) to take off the small trees (the burrs) in order to make the bigger trees (the teeth) look even higher (because cleaner). This could work, but I wouldn’t try.

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    Thank you so much for taking your time to post here Liogier, I've been very interested to see videos of the rasp making process. Some hand made rasps (what I think are generally called pattern maker's rasp here, but I'd be happy to stand corrected) are tools I've been meaning to buy for some time now to replace my machine made rasps. Obviously you know the reason for this in terms of surface finish.

    I'm afraid you lost me however with regard "sharpening" files with acid. Are you saying you feel using acids doesn't work? I have done this on old files and have found it does indeed work, however when I first tried it I wasn't intending to "sharpen" some old files, rather simply remove rust and clean them up. I was surprised to see that not only were they clean, but noticeably sharper. It would seem that others here and elsewhere have found the same. I have no idea on quite why this works, as logically I completely agree with you analysis, I thought they "should" be less sharp. Could it perhaps be that with a blunt file, instead of the teeth being sharp triangular shape coming to a sharp point, that point it now rounded. As the acid removes the metal, it erodes the surfaces with the most surface area, as you mentioned, yet is less aggressive on sharp points? I have no idea and am just guessing, but it's difficult to argue with the results and I'm definitely not the only one to find that the process works. That's a very interesting comment regarding the "teeth" of the file themselves being hardened, yet the "body" of the file is not. Is that correct? I had always presumed that the file was basically hardened right through, hence why they could be snapped off to create a shorter one if required.

    Finally, when making a file or rasp, what type of steel do you use?

    Thanks again for taking the time to answer the questions and provide some very interesting input.

    Pete

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    ok this old trick my grandfather tought me. boil the files in a potash bath. then scrub the files with a hard brush..... place files into a container full of nitric acid for 30 sec...then run or pass the files over a piece of cloth raped tightly around a wooden board. leave the files for a few hours and then wipe them off..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liogier View Post
    .... it will eat first what has remained inside the teeth, which is, by definition a softer material.
    Hi Pete, if you are referring to this then Noel may mean the debris that has stuck to the teeth, but that would be for Noel to confirm.

    I too struggle with the idea of acid sharpening. Could it be that the file appears to have been sharpened, when all that has really happened is the acid has removed the stuck on stuff that prevents the tooth edge being exposed? That in itself would be worthwhile, as long as the teeth aren't etched.

    I had a look at a Nicholson from Brazil that is less than a year old with an 8x loupe and I was shocked at what I saw. It got me thinking about what has been said many times before….what this thread needs is some pics!

    So, this afternoon, I set up a little project to see what I could see. The file (it’s a Mill Bastard, single cut – feels like a smoothie to me) has been used for about a year, and much of it’s work has been to grind threaded rod ends. The threaded rod is held in the chuck of my trusty Metabo (which is clamped), and at about 600rpm the file is run over the end, and finally twisted over the side to take off the burr & edge. The rods are typically 6mm 316 Stainless, 5/16” Zinc plated (probably) mild steel, and brass. I would think that this is pretty torturous treatment for a file. Certainly I can see lines of embedded stuff (presumably stainless as it’s shiny) that I haven’t been able to get out with a file card (that’s a file brush, right?).

    I plan to clean the file in a series of steps, using different techniques and solutions (liquids, that is), and photograph the results along the way.

    Bugger it! No Vinegar! I always have a 2 litre bottle of cleaning vinegar round. Not today!

    Ok, skip that bit. After each treatment, if the file was wet then I blew it down with compressed air, and then a hot air gun, before photographing.

    This is the dirty bastard taken straight from the remote control holder (that’s what I keep my files standing in).




    Using the sharp edge of a wedge of Douglas Fir, a ran the edge longitudinally along the cutting ridges, progressing down the length of each side. An obvious difference here.




    The same technique was used with a Spotted Gum wedge.



    Then I brushed it with the File Brush, holding the brush flat against the face of the file. I know from experience that this does bugger all. Upom closer inspection it seems to me that the wires in the brush are greater in diameter than the distance between the ridges of the file. This of course means that the brush cannot possibly clean in the gullets, and will only rub across the top of the ridges and, if anything, wear down the edges. No bloody wonder it doesn’t do much.



    Next step was to brush down the ridges in a similar way to using the timber wedges, but this time with the edge of the File Brush. This is my usual method for cleaning this file. I use both edges of the brush so that I attack both the backs of the ridges, and the fronts, to try to clear the gullets as much as possible. Having now observed that the wires are bigger than the ridge gaps, this is probably largely a waste of time too (use Douglas Fir).


    Next, I held the file against was a spinning Brass brush in the said Metabo. Actually I’m very suspicious that this is only a Brass coated steel brush. These wires are bigger than the gullets as well.



    An experimental step here: I used non-acid Mag Wheel Cleaner, left on for 15 minutes, and then brushed up with a nylon Nail Brush. No idea what the salts are, but it says “5% weight by volume Alkaline salts”.



    I had intended to go the Vinegar here, but I had to jump straight to the diluted Hydrochloric Acid, 1 to 20 for 15 minutes. Not sure of the original strength of the acid, but it’s brickies acid, so pretty strong. The file was standing up in a measuring cylinder, with 350 mls of acid solution surrounding it. Is there a difference here??? So far, the last decent improvement was after the Douglas Fir rubbing.




    As above but with 1:10 acid (slightled blurred pic, but no difference)



    As above but using a “Draino” solution (20 grams in 350 mls) to see what an alkaline will do. Nothing but promote instant rust as it turns out.



    After the Draino, while I was doing the final inspection with a magnifying glass, THE RUST WAS APPEARING BEFORE MY VERY EYES!!
    I went back to the spinning Brass Brush again. This brought back that “new file sheen” that one sometimes sees for about 5 minutes after purchase. There is a visible difference here, but would it make the file cut any better? It seems to be more of a case of it going back to bare metal, which just makes it a bit shinier. Furthermore, the sheen is very pronounced when I look down the backs of the ridges, from heel to toe, but when I look the other way (onto the cutting edge front) there are so many polished nicks it's a joke! This file was obviously buggered beyond redemption before I started anything. I believe that all of the cleaning/etching etc only served to polish the nicks into absolute highlight. I'll try to photograph these two starkly contrasting views tomorrow - they might be a bit tricky to shoot. If the pictures work, then the contrast will be absolutely stunning. It's mind boggling to the naked eye.





    Continued in the next post due to picture limitations.............
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    Quote Originally Posted by azzrock View Post
    ok this old trick my grandfather tought me. boil the files in a potash bath. then scrub the files with a hard brush..... place files into a container full of nitric acid for 30 sec...then run or pass the files over a piece of cloth raped tightly around a wooden board. leave the files for a few hours and then wipe them off..
    Is that a technique that you use azzrock? Any results?
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Hi Pete, if you are referring to this then Noel may mean the debris that has stuck to the teeth, but that would be for Noel to confirm.

    I too struggle with the idea of acid sharpening. Could it be that the file appears to have been sharpened, when all that has really happened is the acid has removed the stuck on stuff that prevents the tooth edge being exposed? That in itself would be worthwhile, as long as the teeth aren't etched.
    I'm a natural sceptic. I'm especially sceptical of things when I don't understand how they work, and acid etching files is top on that list. BUT having said that, it definitely works. Just Google "File sharpening" and you'll find all manner of sites where people agree that it works. However I tried to satisfy my scepticism by finding out HOW it works ie etching flat surfaces, but not pointed surfaces as much, and I'm still none the wiser. Here is one site however that shows the reduction in a files thickness due to the material being etched off sharpening files - MIG Welding Forum I'd be very keen if anyone could find out why the acid sharpens things to points instead of rounding them over.

    Pete

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