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Thread: Metal files 101
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30th Sep 2011, 12:11 AM #46Dave J Guest
Hi Bryan
Everyone to their own as Pipeclay said about the position you hold the file, I just find it more manageable myself. If I had a bigger lathe like yours it might be different as it would be hard to reach.
As for your file card, you will now have to throw them all out, and guess what, my bin is empty.
I use a wire brush on mine and don't notice the difference, most are quality ones, just not new. As for oil I just use chalk and find it to work, if a file has oil on it I clean it off.
I got a batch from the markets of good quality files and cleaned then all up on the wire wheel on the grinder going with the cutting faces, didn't notice any difference in performance. Most of the books I have here say to use a file card.
Dave
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30th Sep 2011, 12:24 AM #47
What this thread needs is a few pictures...
I'm partial to good old Australian Made Wiltshire... Those bandsaw taper triangular files are almost impossible to find these days.
Regards
Ray
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30th Sep 2011, 01:41 AM #48son of a blacksmith
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if anyone is interested in purchasing the vallorbe bulk packs let me know, i always can do with an extra file that i can forge weld to an axe head. i don't mean the vallorbe ones but the crumby nicholson and bacho ones i have laying about.
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30th Sep 2011, 09:03 AM #49Most Valued Member
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I too was taught to use a file card. I was also taught to put butter on burns too It just goes to show that just because we were taught to do something the "ol' timers" did, that what they were doing was in fact the best approach and not merely something they'd also been taught. Maybe it's just me, but having heard the logic behind it, I didn't find it at all difficult to imagine that indeed rubbing hardened card bristles along the cutting edges of a file's teeth probably wouldn't do them any favours. Of course if you're carding cheap or used/blunt files it's likely you'll never notice any difference so go for it; they were never properly sharp to begin with so it won't make one iota of difference.
Bryan, I can't ever recall draw filing in practice in recent years. I was taught how to many years ago but that was pretty much the end of that little journey However when tuning ski edges the hard spots are first taken off with a diamond stone (a complete digression, but when a stone hits the edge the impact generates very high heat and the snow then shock cools the steel, the type of steel used is obviously capable of hardening) files are held in jigs of various description and the angle they sit in draw files the edge. While a diamond stone is again used to polish the edge, the file in itself can leave a very good edge. A bit of trivia, but I guess there's a place for the practice of draw filing.
I've also been taught not to oil a file ... which is why I oiled mine last night with camellia oil when I noticed the ones I leave out were picking up a bit of light rust. I figured it was the lesser of the two evils as I can always just wash the oil off. Not sure how much difference the oil will make in practice. I find they get oil on them anyway from cutting oil, lube off the lathe etc. Maybe how much difference also depends on what they're filing, brass v steel etc.
Ray that's an awesome stash of files you have there. Are you going to rub salt into the wounds by telling me that you picked them up for next to nothing at an auction?
Pete
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30th Sep 2011, 10:02 AM #501/16"
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files
I just came back to this site after a couple of days away and WOW. I now know more about files and their use. Thanks to all who contributed
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer.
Timber is what you use. Wood is what you burn.
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30th Sep 2011, 02:27 PM #51Most Valued Member
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I have a box of NOS Nicholson 7" slim taper triangle files, there is a Cooper Tools stamp of 05OCT94 on the bottom so they are at least that old I guess. The cutting edges don't look that flash to begin with. I also have 3 sets of Bahco files, one older set and 2 new sets 8" and 10" bought because the old ones were pretty nice to use. As I haven't done much with the 10" ones, the 8" ones are mostly used on the dogs nails so I cant comment as yet to how they compare, hopefully not to badly . Of course I have a draw of "others".
I store files in a roll mostly with a spray of WD40. For Alum I respray with WD40 after each clean. For steel I don't respray them after cleaning like I do with Alum but I don't worry about cleaning the oil(can you call WD40 oil? lol) off before use. For cleaning I use a brass brush if one is handy(there are some great BBQ cleaning brushes with very fine brass wire), if not whatever brush I can lay my hands on. On a single cut file I can imagine a steel brush improving things if used correctly.
Filing is for people without shapers anyway . Most of the filing I do is cleaning up edges, you can do that with a knife if needed.
Hi Ray,
I think I can guess where you picked up at least some of those files from.
Stuart
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30th Sep 2011, 03:21 PM #52
As others have said a most interesting thread.
One thing that would be good to know is some summary on the types of cut on files. I see "bastarrd" , "2nd cut" etc but have little idea of ideal application.
Like others, I'm fortunate to have bought a few Whiltshire files many years ago. I recently found my stash (nothing like that shown above - just 1 box with a mixture of sizes) and have been pleasantly surprised at the ease of filing with a sharp file.
On the filing in a lathe question: - I go left handed, standing down the bed a bit so I'll be less likely to wear an escaping file.
On the handle front: I spent an afternoon making wooden handles. A piece of dowel (about 1.25 inches in diameter - ex curtain rail) with 3/4 copper pipe as a ferrule. I put a 1/4 inch pilot hole in them and they have gone on and stayed on which is more than I can say for some of the plastic handles on a couple of my more recent no-name files.
Finally my contribution:
I separate files into those used for non-ferous material and those used for steel/iron etc.
- New - files for brass/non-ferous material
- Old - for steel
I can still hear my father when I pick up a "new" file reminding me of the above!Last edited by HavinaGo; 30th Sep 2011 at 03:22 PM. Reason: better formatting
cheers
David
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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they’ll never sit in. (Greek proverb)
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30th Sep 2011, 03:51 PM #53
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30th Sep 2011, 04:29 PM #54Most Valued Member
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The cut of a file is choice between how smooth a finish it can leave and how fast it can remove metal.
The normal ones are bastard, second cut, smooth cut. There are others of course.
Then you have single-cut and doudle-cut. Single cut leaving a smoother finish but slower than the double.
Thats the short version.
Stuart
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30th Sep 2011, 04:46 PM #551/16"
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Files
I realise this is all basic knoweldge to those who have been taught but to the rest of us (me) it is very informative so please elaborate on where these different cuts of files would be used.
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer.
Timber is what you use. Wood is what you burn.
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30th Sep 2011, 05:30 PM #56
Thank you Stuart
.. How does one tell them apart when looking at a file. I know some files have diagonal teeth, others have 2 cross hatched patterns making the teeth and then there is the number of teeth/size per unit length of file.
I've always worked on the principle that big teeth = fast removal, not so smooth and small teeth are smooth but why the mix of cross hatch and only one diagonal set of teeth?
As rat52 said ...
Originally Posted by rat52cheers
David
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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they’ll never sit in. (Greek proverb)
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30th Sep 2011, 05:51 PM #57Most Valued Member
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I think maybe the easiest way to describe them is like sandpaper. You start out with a roughest cut you have when you really want to move some metal(although personally I'd be using a power tool of some sort). Then as you want a finer finish or finer details in the work you move to finer cuts.
The full list I have is
rough-cut
course-cut
basturd-cut
second-cut
smooth-cut
dead-smooth-cut
I think it would be fair to say most files are basturd or 2nd, followed by smooth the rest wouldnt be see to often.
Along with the single and double cut there is also one called a dreadnought cut which has curved teeth(I think I might even have one).
My books say single-cut is used for draw filing, lathe filing, brass and similar metals, saw sharpening and on tough steels generally.
Double-cuts are for general purpose filing on soft steel and cast iron.
(For the amount of filing I do I don't normally think of single and double as being different.)
Dreadnought-cuts are for soft metals like Alum, lead and white metal.
You then have the shape of the cross section(round, flat, half round, ward, triangle, square, etc)
Then there are needle files that use a different system for cut(numbers I think) and Riffler files that I know next to nothing about.
Stuart
p.s. Havinago, the cut is normally stamped near the handle. Single long diagonal teeth=single-cut. Cross hatched pattern=double-cut.Last edited by Stustoys; 30th Sep 2011 at 05:55 PM. Reason: p.s.
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30th Sep 2011, 06:31 PM #58
sources
You can usually find some used files at car swap meets . The vendors can be unrealistic with prices , so it pays to be choosy . They usually ask $5 for the Wiltshire brand . I have picked up a few at op shops for $2 , but you have to be lucky as they sell quickly. Mike
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30th Sep 2011, 08:31 PM #59
I've been out shopping for files the last day or so and found some refer to cut 1, 2 or 3
I rather figured, judging on the courseness I could see on each, that they are numbered in the order you would use them. Much the same as sandpaper grits.
Therefore cut 1 = Bastard, cut 2 = second cut and cut 3 = smooth cut.
Does this sound right?
My books say single-cut is used for draw filing,
Ok, it's when you hold the file across the work and draw it towards you.
I've never thought to do that.
If anyone else doesn't get it, like I did, search youtube.
I went to my first choice shop here looking for decent files and found they were getting rid of everything and only going to stock Bahco.
That's the bad news.
The good news is I picked up 5 x 8" NOS german made Pferds.
At $10 each, how could I pass it up?
They've got those crappy blue handles, but thanks to this thread I'm searching Amazon for better ones.
Still need to find the ones I use the most.
250mm flat #2 cut flat and a round file.
I'll keep looking.
Now, can anyone go into just a bit more detail on the acid sharpening please?
I picked up a bottle of vinegar.
How long do I soak the file in it?
Anything else I need to know?
This thread has become something quite amazing.
I thank all contibutors.
Obviously I wasn't the only one wanting to learn the basics.
Up until this thread, I looked upon files as just anouther consumable. Buy one, use it, abuse it, throw it out and buy a new one.
This has turned my whole thinking around.
Cheers
Jim
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30th Sep 2011, 09:08 PM #60
Ive got files I had new when I started my apprentice ship over 40 years ago , and they still cut .
Most are Wiltshires and some Nicholsons .
There are three or four sets of Stubbs needle files and a heap of German or Swiss rifflers .
I always use a wire file card to clean them ,files are much harder than the wire in the cards and the wire will not blunt the file .
I discovered another box full of old files(60 odd) a few weeks ago that I have carried around the country over the years , they will get soaked in cleaning vinegar to sharpen and clean them up and get hung on the rack ready for use.
A fellow forumite has turned me a big lot of wooden file handles to put on them ,much better than the crappy plastic handles that are on the shelves now.
Kev."Outside of a dog a book is man's best friend ,inside a dog it's too dark to read"
Groucho Marx