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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Darwin
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    Default Wire in a push pull gun...

    Hello people,

    First post to this site after being intorduced to it by a friend Jarrah jack, or fiddle back.

    I have a mig of mag 200 supermig 200C

    I have a bit of experience using it to build frames for a house extension I did recently.

    I now want to start a new project, building a 5m aluminium boat. I love to fish, but cant afford a new boat, so have bought a kit and will weld it up over the next few months.... well thats the plan. As my mate said, its a pity I have to start at the bottom, cause thats the bit that will let the water in. Anyway, enough of that.
    I have bought a North Push pull gun for the project, but need advice on how to wire it to the Mig o Mag.

    the push pull gun has a ten pin plug, which I will porbably cut off and replace with a trailer plug, and then wire in a plug to the machine.

    Problem is I am no hoby electonics bloke, and dont really know how to do it. I do have wiring diagrams for both items and both at least run off 24v.

    On the North gun, there is a little circuit board that has a provision for a + and -, in and provision for two wires of "ac"

    The ten plug consists of three not used pins and
    Spool gun wiper potentimeter (2)
    Spool gun switch
    Spool gun CV potentimeter (1)
    Spool gun motor(-)
    Spool gun motor (+)
    Spool gun Switch
    Spool gun CCW potentimeter (3)

    I have attached the wiring diagram for the mig, because there are too many wires for me to try to describe.

    Anyone got any ideas?

    all help would be appreciated

    Regards

    Chris

  2. #2
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    Victoria, Australia
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    Default

    Hi Chris,

    Welcome to the forum, I might be able to get you heading in the right direction.

    Can you scan the circuit diagram from the gun manual.


    Regards
    Ray

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Charlestown NSW
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    Default

    I've got a migomag welder as well - great machine.
    Whats the advantage (and how does it work)of the push pull gun?
    I set my mig up to weld alloy just using the std gun with the correct liner and wire feed pulleys. Worked quite well I thought. Only let done by my inexperience in welding aluminium. lol

    bollie7

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bollie7 View Post
    Whats the advantage (and how does it work)of the push pull gun?
    The big plus for push pull guns is the lenght of gun cable. The ones I have used are two to three times as long as "normal" so you dont have to move the welder around as much. The down side is the guns aren't exactly small and light.(although maybe they have improved, its been awhile)
    Stuart

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    The big plus for push pull guns is the lenght of gun cable. The ones I have used are two to three times as long as "normal" so you dont have to move the welder around as much. The down side is the guns aren't exactly small and light.(although maybe they have improved, its been awhile)
    Stuart
    So the wire spool is still at the welder? and the gun has another set of drive rollers and a motor? That sounds interesting.
    bollie7

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bollie7 View Post
    So the wire spool is still at the welder? and the gun has another set of drive rollers and a motor? That sounds interesting.
    bollie7
    Yes, on the ones I have seen. I guess you could have a pull gun on a remote wire feed but I haven't seen it done.
    Yes
    I can't recall if the feed in the welder is still used.
    Makes sense really, much easier to pull a thin piece of wire than push it. Though as I said it makes the gun pretty heavy. Although I've only seen 350amp pull guns(I think it was 350 is was long ago).

    Sorry I cant help the OP with the wiring.

    Stuart

  7. #7
    Dave J Guest

    Default

    Another way around it is to have a spool gun, where you have a little spool on the hand piece. This saves any problems pushing wire through the liner and the dreaded bird nesting.

    Dave

  8. #8
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    Sep 2011
    Location
    Darwin
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    Default

    Thanks RayG,

    I will have to draw one up tonight and scan and post tomorrow. The one that comes with the gun is indeciferable, although I feel my rendition may well be the same...

    I did look at a spool gun, but the cost of the small roles of wire and the time to roll off a large and onto a small without damaging the wire, made me decide that was not a practical option.

    Regards

    Chris
    Last edited by constablechris; 14th Sep 2011 at 10:06 PM. Reason: spelling b

  9. #9
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    Hi Chris,

    What I was trying to find out from the circuit diagram, was if there was any connection between the speed control for the push motor and the pull motor, or are they adjusted seperately?

    Anyway, I'll wait till I see the other half of the circuit.

    This is the part of the circuit inside the mig that you need to wire into.



    The gun switch will connect across the two brown wires Brown 1 and Brown 2. The pot P1 for adjusting the push speed is probably on the front panel of the MIG, and what I want to know is are you supposed to replace this with the speed pot on the push-pull gun.

    Regards
    Ray

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Darwin
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    Default

    Attached is the hadmade wiring diagram, copied from the very small one supplied

    On the bottom of the gun, there is a speed control and I have been told if things are out of wack I should reduce the pressure on the push end, so the pull end is doing the work?

    Also there is a picture of the circuit board I have been provided. It is about 8cm x8cm and the four inlet outlets read + ac ac - I have no idea what this does or how to wire it.

    Regards

    Chris

  11. #11
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    Hi Chris,

    Apologies for the slow reply, I've been out on a job and just got back..

    Thanks for the circuit, not sure it helps much.

    The circuit board looks like a simple DC supply, I'm guessing it's the power supply for the pull motor. The big green thing is most likely a current limiting resistor, is there any markings on it.

    The thing that's confusing me is that the speed control for the pull motor appears to be missing, so, I'm going to assume that maybe there isn't one, and the pull motor runs flat out and you control the wire feed rate by slowing down the push motor...

    Can you double check that there isn't a speed control for the pull motor.

    Regards
    Ray

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
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    Default

    Hi Ray

    On the bottom of the torch there is a speed control knob, which goes from one to ten, and each graduation has 5 incraments, so it is got plenty of adjustment. I think its the bottom motor in the torch with the three wires from it,

    Your help is appreciated and I am in no great hurry. If I did it by myself, i am thinking soemthing would go bang, so I am happy to wait for your advice

    Regards

    Chris

  13. #13
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    Hi Chris,

    After asking a few questions, I understand that the "normal" way of using a push pull gun is to run both motors at the same speed and adjust it so it slips a bit on the push side. I'm not completely convinced, but it won't hurt anything to give it a try.

    So this circuit is the simplest way of trying it out.



    When you first connect it up you have to check a few things.

    1. Put in a short bit of scrap wire ( or no wire) if you can see the spool on the pull end and see which way the motor runs, if it runs backwards, swap over the E and F wires

    2. Try changing the speed adjustment, if the speed adjustment is reversed, then swap over the C and H wires.

    Once those are both correct polarity, then feed some wire through and adjust the slip on the feed side to give the wire a bit of tension, so that the pull motor is controlling the speed more than the push motor.

    I've left the plugs and connectors out of the circuit, your idea of a trailer connector would work fine. Or you could try Jaycar to see if they have a connector to match the North one.

    Regards
    Ray

    PS... That DC power supply board isn't needed, since we are using the existing power supply inside the MIG

  14. #14
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    Location
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    Default

    Thanks for that Ray,

    I will give it a go on Monday or tuesday. Good drawing, it should make it easy! ( I hope)

    I will let you know how I go.

    Regards

    Chris

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Default

    Probably not the answer that you want to hear, but why bother?
    Does your migomag have a separate wire feeder? If so why not just use the standard gun with a teflon liner. If not, give it a go anyway and make sure that you use the correct wire feed roller, (U groove).
    Push pull guns may well be nice for large boat building establishments but to be honest are not really necessary for what you are doing. Make sure that you use 5183 wire, (it's harder and feeds better), preferably 1.2mm and make sure that you use the correct contact tip of 1.4mm.
    I would imagine that your kit will use sections up to maybe 5mm so you should be ok with a 200A welder, but watch your duty cycle as it will be easily exceeded when welding up a boat where long continuous runs are involved, also be aware that a mig used on aluminium will probably not bite in fully for around 20-40mm at the start of the run, (section thickness and cleanliness dependent), so don't be afraid to bust out the stainless wire brush.
    Oh and while I am at it, DO NOT, whatever you do, buy one of the tct saws to fit an angle grinder. They are pure death and I believe are technically illegal under Australian Standards. Instead use standard cutting and grinding wheels lubricated with good old candle wax, the 1mm cutting discs are superb for ally, particularly when lubricated. If using a power saw or jigsaw methylated spirits works well and leaves no residue.
    If your kit has been cnc router cut then be aware that the edges will be razor sharp and take due care. If it has been plasma cut then don't forget to grind and clean the cut faces as there will be a particularly heavy oxide layer present.
    Have you welded ally before? If not, then I suggest that you get plenty of practice before building your kit, remember, on the water you cannot get out and walk if it fails.
    I know it is an extra, but I would suggest offloading the push pull gun and purchasing an AC DC tig, it will be of more benefit in building your boat, (still mig most of the seams though). You will notice that professionally built boats usually have the start of the seams tigged due to the fact mentioned above re migs not properly biting initially and fittings such as dasboards, consoles and railings are usually tigged also.
    Tack everything well and grind your tacks before welding, ensure that you have everything square and true as you cannot push a boat back into shape if you fabricate it with a twist or hook in it and if you get the hull shape wrong, handling will be severely compromised, (even to the extent of not planing at all).
    I am not trying to dissuade you, only give you some info to hopefully give you the best outcome. Good luck.

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