Thread: German precision- a pair of Thiels

Had these images hidden at work. Thought I'd share them.

BT

Bob, do you recall about maybe 18 months ago seeing a Thiel Duplex 58* on ebay in ADL? He wanted $1500 opening, but it had none of the proprietary tooling but it did have some cracked castings (dropped?).

I had a hankering to own that except for those deal-breakers. It had external telescoping shafts providing motive power to the feeds.

It is said that Thiel pioneered the Euro-Universal-Toolmaker mills. (Although Van Norman in the USA had early form too)

* I think that was the model...it was Thiel's first mill at any rate.

GQ

on edit: lathes.co.uk confirms that it was a Duplex 58. A real clockmaker's dream. I do like the generous Y travel on these Thiels though.

I sure do Greg. My memory has faded but I thought it appeared older than the two honeys pictured. I also thought it went for 900 bucks but I could well be wrong. It was a desirable thing but the knowledge that acquisition would have caused heartache and grief made the desire fade. In reality, not a machine to even contemplate buying, sight unseen. I still have to pinch myself when I look at the 13 parked in the shed.

Extension beyond the table .. nice.

Oh. I thought that it was removed before expiring-I was going to make him a low-ball offer after the fact.

These mills are so neat that I too am awed by them. I'm very glad to have the Perrin here, and Mike with his no-nonsense restorer's instincts to be a bit adventurous with.

But at the end of the day there's nothing in these machines that's any more complicated than...than...oh, say a birdcage Maserati's gearbox. Easy-Peasy.

You're younger than me, your memory is sharper.

Would you have taken a punt and purchased it without seeing it and giving it a test drive? I suppose your mate Mike did with the Perrin.

Thanks for your comment elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

You're younger than me, your memory is sharper.

Would you have taken a punt and purchased it without seeing it and giving it a test drive? I suppose your mate Mike did with the Perrin.

Thanks for your comment elsewhere.

No, I don't reckon. The machine's vintage, the busted (and badly repaired) casting for the Y axis, and the lack of any tooling at all (which as I recall from Tony's site is unique and unobtanium) all made it a screwy deal for me. The bad angel whispers in my ear "How many Thiel Duplex 58s are you going to see?". Well, that's true, but so what? I'm not the designated machine curator in this part of the globe. That said, I did buy my Deckel sight-unseen, but only after half an hour on the phone with the seller. Even then it was 50:50 to walk away despite the extras. And probably four weeks of restoration work by the time I'm done

Mike did his thing with the Perrin largely because he is consumed with Deckle lust and I was urging him on. (I am widely regarded as Beelzebub by my friends for that trait) (Go on hit him! His girlfriend will be all over you-trust me!). But for $385 how can you go wrong? I would have popped $600 just for a CNC project basis. As it turns out that would have been money well spent because the castings are so robust. And I have the skill set to make it serviceable again. I reckon it's going to be a great mill: compact, yet good travels. Rigid as hell yet small footprint.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Thanks for your comment elsewhere.

Pleasure. All part of the service here at the House of Pain.

I have scant ... no, zero, tolerance for the trait of some young smart people to think that they are the first smart folks that ever was. Being able to spell Socrates, and his method, is only 10% of ditto. You don't ever know where you are going without knowing where you've been, which is why design schools should teach Shakespeare and the Bible along with Socrates and the golden ratio. On the other hand, I'm 56, and only now almost smart enough to graduate from high school.

Not knowing what a birdcage Maserati looked like ... here's a link to a model of one

MASERATI Tipo 61 Birdcage

Easy to see what inspired the nickname.

...and this is what the frame (which inspired the 'birdcage' moniker) looked like:

I have seen a cut-away of the gearbox, which was typical of the era. The only trick gearbox that I've been elbows deep in is a Porsche 915, as fitted to 911s up until the mid-80's. Our machines are similar, except for the syncromesh.

on edit: Can you imagine being that confident in your welding? (Or brazing most probably, as that looks like a bunch of Columbus chrome-moly tubing stolen from a bike shop)

Originally Posted by Greg Q

Oh. I thought that it was removed before expiring-I was going to make him a low-ball offer after the fact.

Believe it was a starting bid ~$400 initially, then re-listed at a higher price after a couple of locals had checked it out, giving him a few delusions of what it was worth. All the rust after sitting outside along with the broken castings.....not sure there would be enough trees to make the required poles personally.

An aside about the early Maser, during practice for one of the endurance events, Sebring?, mechanics had to do an engine swap, only realistic way to do it was break out a hacksaw.

One of the Italian machine tool makers of old, now do competition gearboxes and transaxles to complete the circle too.

I dare say they would have been Columbus framed.

Columbus Tubi

When I was a much younger fitter version of myself I had a couple of bike frames made by a local builder. Replaced them first with a Bianchi followed by a Colnago. All Columbus framed. The hand builts could have been Reynolds 531. Can't remember why I went Italian.

The italian bikes with their Campagnolo stuff were just sexier as I recall. I was always too tall for anything but a tailor-made. Only ever had one frame though. Maybe I should have researched Soviet or East German bikes back then for something bigger.

Originally Posted by Hunch

Believe it was a starting bid ~$400 initially, then re-listed at a higher price after a couple of locals had checked it out, giving him a few delusions of what it was worth. All the rust after sitting outside along with the broken castings.....not sure there would be enough trees to make the required poles personally.

An aside about the early Maser, during practice for one of the endurance events, Sebring?, mechanics had to do an engine swap, only realistic way to do it was break out a hacksaw.

One of the Italian machine tool makers of old, now do competition gearboxes and transaxles to complete the circle too.

I had forgotten about the rust, and outside storage. Maybe I wasn't ever going to offer him anything, especially with the distances involved.

Also, while quickly wondering at the birdcage's construction I never thought about engine changes. What a delightfully crazy approach to frame design.

Originally Posted by Greg Q

The italian bikes with their Campagnolo stuff were just sexier as I recall. I was always too tall for anything but a tailor-made. Only ever had one frame though. Maybe I should have researched Soviet or East German bikes back then for something bigger.

I had started acquiring Super Record bits and pieces when I had the Bianchi. Had the entire groupset (excluding the hubs, they were Record) on the Colnago Mexico. Loved the engaving on the titanium derailleur fixings. That stuff exuded quality.

I can also remember the maintenance. The bottom bracket casting was slotted. Can't tell you how many times I had the bottom bracket bearings and the hubs apart after a ride in the rain. I replaced the BB bearings with a Swiss Nadax sealed bearing cartridge. The good old days, when cyclists waved to each other out on the open road.

ps. ever lay your eyes on a Campagnolo tool set in it's wooden case? It was something to behold.