Thread: Newby, HSS, or carbide + tools

have not had much experience using lathes, have purchased a lathe, now need tooling plus a coolant pump.
Did not realize tooling was that expensive, especially the carbide tips.
the lathe is a hafco 960b which takes 12mm tooling, in my previous experience breaking carbide tips was easy when the steel was out of round.
would HSS be a better cheaper choice, Have read that it gives a better finish.
Quiet clueless when it comes to HSS.
Are HSS holders specific to the job.
The majority of work being done would be using steel.
machining axles, to fit bearings.
boring.
making steel rollers and machine this to fit bearings as well as a groove to place a circlip to hold the bearings
machine hubs to attach to an axle.
threading the axles,
are internal threads possible on a lathe ?

Now for the carbide tooling, are the H&F good quality?
the basic carbide kit contains most of the tools i need for these jobs, the choice is confusing.
are carbide tips universal e.g. can i use the tip from the normal straight tool on a boring bar ?
Whats the iso standard ?

have not purchased a coolant pump as i thought it was expensive.
Planning on using an evaporative aircon pump.
do coolant pumps use a fine filter ? or is the intake placed higher up so the metal simply sinks to the bottom of the tank ?
Have any members made a pump succesfully using either pumps from washing machines or aircons ?

Im very confused.

For someone starting out and with not much experience HSS would probably be the way to go for awhile.

As to holders for HSS wouldnt say they are specific to certain jobs,more so its the shape of the holder and the size of HSS they will hold,(right,left,straight,1/8".3/16",1/4" etc).

You may find you preffer to use a certain size piece of HSS,there is no need to use any sort of holder for HSS if you dont want to,I use 3/8" and !/2" straight in the tool post but the holders do make the smaller sizes a bit easier to handle.

You say you will mainly be machining steel depending on the type of steel you shouldnt have a problem with HSS.

The only problem you will come across will be the cutting parameters with the HSS,some materials will need you to adjust speed and feed as well as clearance angles etc.

In regards to getting a better finish maybe yes maybe no,a lot of this will come down to opperator experience,tool geometry,machine ridgidity etc.

The H&F sets would probably be ok for starting out,I dont have very much experience with them,others here may be able to advise better,the only concern would be that they might not use standard tips but there own.

If you look at the tool sites,Sandvik,Kennametal Iscar etc you will be able to see the different tips they have and the tool holders that these tips will suit.

Most but not all tips will suit more than 1 holder whether that be boring, facing, turning etc.
Others will more than likely explain the difference.

You will be able to do internal threads the only limitation here will be your experience (experience will be the governing factor in all that you do).

In regards to your cooling needs I use 2 types ( a dedicated submersible pump for the larger lathe and a pond pump for the smaller lathe and milling machine).

You can raise the pumps slightly off the bottom of your sump ,wouldnt really worry about a filter just something to get blocked.

Make sure that your return line is at the opposite end of your tank to your pump,most swarf that finds its way into the sump will settle to the bottom quickly,although there will be small particles that will susspend in the coolant it should be a problem.

Best bet would be to install a reasonably fine gauze or wire cover over your return hole that is easily removed to trap and stop most swarf from entering the sump.

Or place a large neodymium magnet strategically between the return and the pump; that'll pull all the ferrous swarf from the coolant. Even better, you can have the magnet outside the container so that when you clean it, you just pull the magnet off and dump out a big load of swarf from the inside of the tank.

Originally Posted by lather

Now for the carbide tooling, are the H&F good quality?
the basic carbide kit contains most of the tools i need for these jobs, the choice is confusing.
are carbide tips universal e.g. can i use the tip from the normal straight tool on a boring bar ?
Whats the iso standard ?
.

If you are referring to this set:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...stockCode=L009
there are a couple of disadvantages:

1). The tips do not seem to conform to any ISO standard design, so replacements are not universally available. H & F sells replacement kits:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...ckCode=L009#RA
but not the individual tips. I find I use a lot more of a couple of the several cutting types of tips used in the set, so tend to accumulate unwanted tip types from buying the kits. Sometimes individual tip types for these holders appear on e-bay though.

2). A couple of the toolholders had insufficient end or side clearance as supplied so the tool holder fouled the work with anything but a very light cut.

3). In my limited experience (I use mostly HSS) they seem to chip very easily, and are usually discarded for this reason rather than excessive wear.

If you do intend to use indexible carbide tooling, I suspect that a better way to go would be to buy individual ISO compatible tool holders to suit modern readily available tips as needed.

Frank

I have a 960 and use both HSS and carbide depending on the job at hand. As the other say, using HSS is worthwhile, it's valuable to take the time to learn how to grind your tooling. If you are worried about that aspect you could try one of the tangential toolholders (google eccentric engineering) as they make it very easy.

If you decide to go down the carbide route I'd recommend lashing out and buying Taguetec tool holders rather than the H&F generic stuff. They are much more precise, take standard tips and I've had no issues with them at all. I bought 16mm holders and machined a smidgin off the bottom, that way they fit the 960 without the need to use packing pieces.

As far as coolant goes, I usually cut dry. I have a gravity feed system using neat cutting oil when I'm doing harder materials using Fuchs Ratak 40S oil I use an old stationary engine fuel tank on a stand above the lathe to run this oil down as required. I still sealed the bolt holes to prevent oil getting into the cabinet.

If you do decide to use carbide you must remember that it hates sudden changes in temperature - you either flood it with coolant or run it dry - you cannot drip coolant onto it in dribs and drabs otherwise it will fracture.

Could I recommend some reading on the basics of general turning? If you do some googling you'll find there's lots of great info out there. Here's an oldie but a goodie to kick you off: http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/lathe-tutorial.pdf

thanks for the tips, much to learn.
Are the 16 mm holders more stable stronger for precise work, or is it only to stop using spacers.
Are coolants oil or water based

When you reffer to 16mm holders you understand that ,that is the height of the cutting edge of the tool from the base of the tool holder.

Unless you have a large opening in your tool post or are useing a quick change tool post you will have to machine the base of the tool holder to suit the centre height of your lathe.

In regards to your coolant question the answer is yes to either depending on application.

Having been a newbie not that long ago,when I was faced with the prospect of tooling a new lathe, I found that the choice was overwhelmingly HSS.

Why? because as a amateur everything in the long run is driven by cost and convenience.

Carbides is the choice of an industry that runs on large runs of product with speed.Against that, it is very expensive in terms of the tooling that it is the tool holder for the insert to fit into,let alone the inserts themselves.

Carbide does not tolerate intermittent cuts or accidental reversal of the spindle direction which chips the cutting point-every time. At $10 a time,and the cost of expensive holders,it was too expensive for limited work for me.

Given, that you are machining axles, to fit bearings,
boring,making steel rollers and machine this to fit bearings as well as a groove to place a circlip to hold the bearings,machine hubs to attach to an axle,
threading the axles, the versatility and economy of tooling that you can immediately grind yourself to meet the needs of the work,HSS has got to be a winner.

The downside for HSS is that you need to learn to grind you HSS. I am teaching YR 11 students to grind their own tools at the moment - so if they can do it ,so can most folks.Remember you will also need a 200mm grinder fitted with perhaps 60 and 80 grit aluminium oxide wheels respectively.

And that was the less than the cost of a reasonable brand Carbide RH tool and a few carbide inserts.

For those wanting to learn to grind the HSS tools, there is a U tube clip by a Tubal Cain-(A yank version,I think, not the UK one)-that is excellent.The kids picked up heaps from it.

Below is an incomplete soft face hammer turned by one of my girls at school.She is new to the lathe as of March- April this year.Its not a perfect job ,sure,but not too shabby for a newbie.She grinds her own HSS tools.

Hope this is helpful.

Grahame

Hi Lather

I am a relative newbie too and I wanted to get going on the turning and worry about grinding HSS and what tools and inserts etc., to get later. I bought a Diamond Tool Holder and while it may not be the best tool for every situation it works as advertised and I am happy. You might want to consider it.

Eccentric Engineering

Pete

I'll second Pete, I have one of those and they are very good, straight out of the box to the point that I use mine for 90% of my turning. It's child's play to sharpen using the supplied jig, you don't need any shims to set the tool to centre height. I've not tried using it to do threading as I have carbides for that.

On my 960B I use the B16 model.

Where do you purchase this diamond tool holder?

went to H&F to purchase HSS holders and bits.
the situation got confusing as the salesman didn't know much about this.
The carbide tools were easy to understand as the lathe takes 12mm tool holders.
What do i use when it comes to HSS tool holders, do i still try to get a 12mm holder or is HSS completely different?
are the thicker bits more precise (less vibration )than the smaller HSS bits.

Hi,
As Pipe clay said above you can use HSS in your tool post without a holder. 3/8 is easy to grind compared to the larger sizes. To get you going just get a few sticks to practice on and use them in the tool holed as is, pack them up to centre height. The type of job your doing will vary what you need and how you need to hold it.

Follow this link and it will show you how to grind and also the HSS tool holders.
http://www.cutterod.com/cutter_zone/...athe_Tools.pdf

Dave

Originally Posted by lather

Where do you purchase this diamond tool holder?

QC Inspector provided a link.

HI,
I Bought this Carbide Set https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...stockCode=L451 when I bought My AL-960. I Machined about 0.5mm off the base of the Two Turning Tools to get the right Centre Height. I tried an old HSS Tool Holder that I had before I sold My Hercus Model 'A'. I was quite very Happy with it so I bought a New Straight and Right Hand one( i will Buy a Left hand one later. This is the HSS Holders https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...tockCode=L070R and this one https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...tockCode=L070S . Don't Buy the English HSS Holders as apparently the Centre height on them is too Low for the AL-960. I have always found that HSS gives a better Finish.