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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default Ward kiln conversion for heat treating.

    Hey guys.

    So a discussion was had in the new member area and some asked for details on my heat treating oven conversion.

    Now I'm not a sparky so all my work was done at my own risk and everything is advice only. If you are not confident I suggest you have a sparky do your wiring If you decide to have a go.

    So I was heat treating by eye with color and a magnet in a gas forge. It works and it's fine. However I wanted to start working with some more complex alloys that needed a bit of precision.

    So I bought a front opening ward kiln. Now the potentiometer type controller is not suitable. So I got an inkbird PID on eBay and went about swearing at the kiln for half a day while I worked out how to wire it up.

    Now she works a treat! I get very consistent results from multiple steel types.



    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Default

    Good job on the PIDing.

    That looks like a good size kin for only 8A/240V, what temperature can you get it up to?

    I'll be interested to know what kind of element lifetimes you get. The kilns we had at work that were only being used on an occasional basis seemed to be always burning out or breaking elements. Do you know of any elements that don't do that or don't break as often?

    I built a 2 torch mains powered gas furnace a few years ago but haven't used it much and it takes up a lot of space. It now needs a reline but on my back veranda I have an elderly 240/20A kiln that work chucked out about 5 years ago because it kept breaking elements and was thinking I might get it working to replace the gas powered unit, provided of course I could get elements that lasted.

  3. #3
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    I haven't had to replace the element as yet and I use it weekly. I've had it up to 1080deg for doing stainless heat treats with no issues. Just takes it a while to get there

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT Edgeworks View Post
    I haven't had to replace the element as yet and I use it weekly. I've had it up to 1080deg for doing stainless heat treats with no issues. Just takes it a while to get there
    Thanks - how many weeks? and what's "a little while"

  5. #5
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    Well I've been running this element for the past 2 years and I did not replace it when I bought the machine second hand. So who knows how old the coils are! And to get to 1080 perhaps an hour or so. It gets to 815deg in about 30min that's where I am usually heat treating.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

  6. #6
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    Sep 2021
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    Default A tiny bit more info..

    GT, when you say the ‘potentiometer type controller’ wasn’t suitable, was it because it was broken? Missing? Why wasn’t it suitable? I’ve just bought a kiln the same as bit of a project.
    Thanks ☄️

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torchgirl View Post
    GT, when you say the ‘potentiometer type controller’ wasn’t suitable, was it because it was broken? Missing? Why wasn’t it suitable? I’ve just bought a kiln the same as bit of a project.
    Thanks ☄️
    He probably means it's not ideal for controlled ramping up/down and soak temperatures for heat treating,

    what are you using your kiln for?

  8. #8
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    That's correct. Pyrometers have a place. But they are not stable enough to heat treat steel accuracly. A PID is set temp and walk away. Pyrometers mixed with potentiometers require attendance until you get used to your kiln. They are also not as energy efficient as a PID. The PID will feather the power supply to keep temp up. The potentiometer style runs at whatever percentage power full time. Where as the PID will get to temp and only potentially use 1% of the normal amperage to keep it there. There is probably math to work it out better. I've done several kilns since writing the original post now.

    Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NedsHead View Post
    He probably means it's not ideal for controlled ramping up/down and soak temperatures for heat treating,

    what are you using your kiln for?
    Thanks, NedsHead

    I want to use it for annealing torchworked glass beads, firing metal clays like silver, and mucking around with glass. But being able to heat treat other metal appeals too.

    I have a bigger Tetlow kiln for clay. But it’s overkill for annealing small things.

  10. #10
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    A potentiometer wouldn't be run at % power at all times on a kiln because potentiometers cannot handle typical high kiln currents.
    Potentiometers are used in some kiln current control circuits together with TC feedback to switch a relay, that in turn switches the kiln element on and off to regulate the kin temperature, which is the same as what PID controlled kilns do.
    Potentiometers used in conjunction with a $5 micro controller and TC to monitor the temperature can achieve surprising thermal stability and circuits like these also use similar amounts of power to what a PID does
    Last year I set up a thermal device with these controls and was able to achieve +/- ~1.5% temperature stability without trying too hard.

    However, PID control offers other significant advantages
    For example, PIDs are much better at controlling temp in low mass, poorly insulated devices.
    Last year I set up a PID control for a home made tempering oven for the knife makers at the local mens shed.
    The oven was just a 300 x 300 x 150 mm steel box made of 6 mm thick steel plate with no insulation but it was able to achieve a temp stability of +/- 0.5% .
    In a well insulated, higher mass device, like a kiln , even greater temperature stability (0.2 - 0.1%, which translates to 1º at 1000ºC) could be achieved.
    The other major advantage is that PIDs can be easily programmed to ramp up/down/hold for specific times.

  11. #11
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    Default

    TorchGirl, welcome to the forums.


    Bob, I assume the old kilns use a big "rheostat" (i.e. heavy duty wire-wound thing),
    or a large multi-tap step down transformer,
    instead of a potentiometer (small carbon film volume control type thing)?




    Mind you, the only kiln I remember is the old one from school art classroom.
    I think it was a bi-metallic strip thermostat,
    with an auxilliary thermometer gauge poked in one corner

  12. #12
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigelpearson View Post
    TorchGirl, welcome to the forums.
    Bob, I assume the old kilns use a big "rheostat" (i.e. heavy duty wire-wound thing),
    or a large multi-tap step down transformer,
    instead of a potentiometer (small carbon film volume control type thing)?
    Yeah bimetallic strip would have been widely used but the better ones would have used used a voltage comparator circuit not unlike I described in a previous post.

    Here is a 55 year old muffle furnace (sans the front door which I do have somewhere) I'm attempting to resurrect- you might recognise the all SS trolley I welded up for it a couple of months back.
    I've been physically incapacitated and have only just managed to get help lifting the furnace onto the trolley which also allows me to look at its internals.

    It has only 3 doodads on the front.
    3=switch, 1=indicator lamp, and 2 = red sliding/lockable knob attached to the temp gauge - this sets the temp.

    WholeFurnce.JPG

    Underneath it looks like the photo below.
    3 = switch, 2 - a large relay, and 1 is a box of analog electronics that is basically a voltage comparator.
    The black circular thing on the lower left of the back of the comparator box is made of glass and looks like an electronic valve.
    The pale green shrouded wire is the thermocouple (TC) lead.

    The red knob on the front of the furnace sets a referencevoltage (calibrated to a temperature) inside the voltage comprator box.
    The TC (amplified) signal is compared to the reference voltage every X seconds and if the TC signal is too low turn on relay, if it's too high turn it off.
    This would have been quite an expensive furnace in it its day.
    Furnace internals.JPG
    You can see another


    I'm having a hard time replacing a couple of the broken furnace elements as they are a uncommon size.

    Apparently it has not been in use for about 20 years so I'm not holding my breath that it will work.
    If it works, I have an optical pyrometer that I can use to check it to +/- 5ºC at 1000ºC.
    If it doesn't work or hold temperature properly I will convert to PID control.

  13. #13
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Something to check:
    Some older equipment will have asbestos covered high temperature wiring. The wires will have a coarse slightly uneven braiding compared to fibreglass.
    Take care.
    Neil

  14. #14
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil317 View Post
    Something to check:
    Some older equipment will have asbestos covered high temperature wiring. The wires will have a coarse slightly uneven braiding compared to fibreglass.
    Take care.
    Neil
    Yep mine also has 2 hard asbestos sheets inside it and it also contained a badly fraying blanket of the stuff which has been replaced with regular furnace insulation (that stuff is not good for you either). Wearing PPE I vacuumed the areas in and around the friable stuff using an old vacuum cleaner which sin ce been damaged beyond repair and disposed off.

  15. #15
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    Just for reference. Ward kilns NEVER contained refractory with asbestos in it. The wiring I'm unsure but the chap in Adelaide that built 16000 ward kilns in his career that does elements now told me that they never used asbestos bricks or blanket.

    Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

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