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26th Jan 2019, 04:15 PM #76Most Valued Member
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And here was I thinking we were having a polite discussion as to how and why the world will end if a welder had a 10amp plug fitted. Seems to be light on answers so far.
You want to talk about experts? How about the aussie company that shipped 10000s(possibly 100000s) of items with a soldered earth connection? Now I maybe wrong but I believe earth connections must be a physical connection? Where is that electrician(a real one)when I need one? (now maybe it was a change of regs, but I don't believe so)
Hey its your picture, your claim, maybe you should enlighten us?
While I'm sure some manufacturers would say exactly that(we have had posts saying as much on this forum) I doubt that they can. Sure they maybe able to scare people off by threatening to inform Workcover etc, I'd hardly call that standing behind your product. I wonder if they are still trying to work out why that don't get a lot of repeat customers?
Imagine your shiny new "insert car manufacturer of your choice" kicked a rod out the side of the block leaving engine parts all over the road after a week, only to be told by said manufacturer "We noticed you've have fitted an air freshener to the rear-view mirror(illegally), I'm sorry but that's a modification you're not covered". Now don't get me wrong I wouldn't put it past them to try it on, but without the threat of "I'll get you buried in more paper work that you ever want to deal with that has nothing to do with the issue but lets us get out of paying up" I'm not so sure they would get far.
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26th Jan 2019, 05:06 PM #77Pink 10EE owner
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I suppose the flip side is firstly what has he/she done. What are the circumstances surrounding it and was it dangerous.
Yes I can see what I believe to be the earth is not ideal. Was it done purely to test the machine, or was it a permanent installation?
What would happen tomorrow if all the state government's banded together and said unless you are a mechanic, you are totally forbidden from repairing any part of your car. This is to save lives from dodgy repairs to cars. Would the public simply say, yes that is fantastic and good? Some would I am sure, some certainly would not.
Is the above photo a result from our over zealous laws?
It is a bit like the current debate on pill testing. If people are going to do it regardless, is it better it is done safely, then trying to lock up and hide the knowledge with only a select few knowing it.Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.
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26th Jan 2019, 06:23 PM #78Most Valued Member
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26th Jan 2019, 08:53 PM #79Diamond Member
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Given the lack of gas or leads, it doesn't look like much welding was going on. It would be interesting to know the actual story behind the picture.
Also, if that HWS was on off-peak, that would have really screwed with his welding schedule.
EDIT: But thinking about it, off-peak would be cheap power, so maybe not so foolish.
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27th Jan 2019, 08:23 PM #80
While I am occassionally sarcastic this was not one of those times. No sarcasm was intended. I really do think you have made a very good decision. I think anyone with the money to put in bigger wiring should do so for all the reasons you mention.
Most businesses are a bit gun shy of oversupplying and thus charging more. Sparky's are no different.
With regard to your pool heater, Solar and its consequences/advantages have taken awhile to percolate into everyone's mind. In this case the electrician did the job for the expected load at the time. Most people might not be keen on paying for a larger conduit and cable upfront than they need at the time, unless they think they will install extra load later.
Cheers
The Beryl BlokeEquipmenter.... Projects I own
Lathes - Sherline 4410 CNC
Mills - Deckel FP2LB, Hardinge TM-UM, Sherline 2000 CNC.
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27th Jan 2019, 09:09 PM #81
Hi Stu,
Not sure I understand your comment here? My point was that by changing the physical size of the earth pin it prevents bigger loads being plugged into a circuit that may not be rated for it. i.e. an unmodified 15A single phase plug will not fit into a standard 10A GPO. My understanding of your comment is that that doesnt work???
What percentage of general population do you think give any thought to the load on the circuit before they plug their new toaster in? What percentage of them even know which GPO is on which circuit? Won't someone think about the children!
By that argument we shouldn't plug anything into anything or cross the road for that matter.
So for safety sparkies should file the earth pin down as they cant be trusted to wire a plug either.
Would anyone care to postulate a fault in a welder that could happen with a 10amp plug that wouldn't have happened with a 15amp plug?
Cheers
The Beryl BlokeEquipmenter.... Projects I own
Lathes - Sherline 4410 CNC
Mills - Deckel FP2LB, Hardinge TM-UM, Sherline 2000 CNC.
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27th Jan 2019, 09:25 PM #82
Hi .RC.,
While I understand that it can be seen that way. That is not really my point.
In truth I don't give a small furry rodents anus about whether people have a ticket or not. What I do care about is that the people doing the work understand the implications of what they are doing, know how to test what they have done and have the equipment to do those tests. The reality is that a ticket is just a piece of paper. I know ticketed sparkies who should find another line of work because they certianly don't have much of an idea.
Why do I care? People who carry out electrical work with inadequate knowledge of what they are doing put themselves, family and friends at risk. Shocks and death are not laughing matters.
Cheers
The Beryl BlokeEquipmenter.... Projects I own
Lathes - Sherline 4410 CNC
Mills - Deckel FP2LB, Hardinge TM-UM, Sherline 2000 CNC.
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28th Jan 2019, 05:52 PM #83Most Valued Member
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29th Jan 2019, 02:03 PM #84Most Valued Member
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I said LOAD. In RC's example he could happily plug a LOAD of 250A onto a single fused circuit. Beer fridge on no beer fridge. So you're 15amp plug doesn't seem to do a lot to stop that.
So they can plug 250A of load on a single circuit... .right?
Then I dont get the joke.
EXACTLY! and yet this thread kicked off(and much of what followed) is about some place where the wiring is substandard and incorrectly fused with some questionable insurance advice thrown in for good measure. The total LOAD is the issue, not where that load came from. So I'd say that's where the straw man is in this thread.
We then get this But wait! He isn't qualified! he cant possibly be expected to do this. (I've even seen it argued he isnt even allowed to check fuses, them being part of the fixed wiring and all that. Though I cant comment on the truth of that. And just how would you truly test a fuse?)
How about the buzzing breaker on my main panel? sparky says its fine. I don't know, I know AC things can buzz, how much buzz is a bad thing?
But filing the pin down removes that risk
A short? no problem your protective device will take care of that(see above). Though it would be a challenge to wire a 3 pin plug with a short I am sure someone has managed it.
No earth? welder is still gong to work just fine(NO I am not saying that is a good idea)
But is that the best you can do? That applies to all plugs. I am looking for a fault 'in the welder', the direct cause of which is the power flowing through a correctly* wired 10amp plug in lieu of a 15A plug .
*correctly in the physical sense not the regulatory sense.
Indeed, and it would seem NZ has found a better way of doing things. I'm sure all sparkys will be pushing for AU to follow suit. Yet 10 of 000s of faulty earths doesn't rate a comment.
How about the penalties for those qualified experts who are unlucky enough to get caught doing the wrong thing? $375, that wouldn't even remove the profit from many jobs. And it would seem you or I have no way of knowing whether that sparky we just called has been fined 5 times in the last year.
To quote a thread I read recently
"Now, guess what the fine is for having a dog in a national Park?
15 units - $2,378 fine
So... Steal, ignore police, get and drive like a demon, play chicken with a train, give alcohol to kids, go on a drunk riot in public, leaving live cables exposed; that's all frowned upon.
But f*** me, don't let your dog out on a leash in a National Park to stretch their legs for 2 minutes. They take that s**t seriously! "
https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=8503
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29th Jan 2019, 09:35 PM #85Most Valued Member
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Boy, a lot of people getting hot under the collar about a plug.
Chris
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30th Jan 2019, 03:15 PM #86
I'm not saying that it is right, or that they will even do it ... I'm just saying that the CAN do it because the equipment was modified.
Yeah that is a great parallel to cutting off and replacing a machines plug with a differently rated plug ... :rolleyesCheers.
Vernon.
__________________________________________________
Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.
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30th Jan 2019, 04:16 PM #87Most Valued Member
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Sure, they CAN say whatever they like. Whether they in fact have a leg to stand on is another matter completely. I'd argue they don't, but lets just leave that to one side.
We are reliably informed that a least one service center does say exactly that. Their response when questioned about it isn't "take up it with consumer affairs" or "see you in small claims" or some such, given they believe they are within their rights to refuse said warranty claim. No, it's a threat to dob you into workcover. If you're happy to except that as "standing behind our product" then so be it.
Strange I thought it was a pretty good one.
Modification to a car that had no effect on the malfunction.
Modification to a welder that had no effect on the malfunction.(well until someone turns up with one).. :rolleyes
Hey I'm still waiting to hear about the hotwater welder.Last edited by Stustoys; 30th Jan 2019 at 04:17 PM. Reason: typo
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30th Jan 2019, 06:53 PM #88
Feel free to search welding in the old WWF around 2nd Aug 2009 .That,s I saved the pic.
From what I remember the poster said he had just purchased it and lived in the flats and thought he could hook it up to the hotwater system.A system likely connected by copper pipes to the other flats bathrooms.
It does not take much of an imagination to work out what could happen if something went wrong.
Grahame
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30th Jan 2019, 07:08 PM #89Diamond Member
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Wouldn't the breaker trip IF the welder did happen to draw too much current?
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30th Jan 2019, 07:35 PM #90
Can I just interject and ask where the 250A load came from?
A large single phase welder can put up to 30A load on the workshop circuit (talking effective current here).
The welding circuit (between the electrode and earth clamp) could be up to or beyond 250A, depending on the unit. But since a welder is essentially a gearbox for electricity, we are talking about two separate loads here.
To put it in perspective, 250A would be equivalent of 100x 100W incandescent light globes on one circuit, which no electrician in his/her right mind would be seen installing, probably not even by a balaclava wearing apprentice doing an after-hours cashie.
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