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  1. #61
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    Apr 2018
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    Lismore Northern NSW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    Now I wish I had more
    My point exactly. Paying for a bigger cable is cheaper than redoing things.

  2. #62
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    Dec 2018
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    NSW
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    Sure. I understand your angle, but I respectfully disagree. I do think that it is a poorly contrived definition and could be clearer, but I guess that not every policy clerk can knock it out of the park every day of the week, amiright? Peanuts, monkeys etc.

    Fist the definitions from your source:
    "Electrical worker”
    A person who carries out electrical work and is licensed or authorized to do so.
    “General public”
    A person who is not doing any work as part of his or her employment or under a contract of work, or training at the time the incident occurs
    “Non-electrical Worker”
    A person who is in the process of carrying out their occupation and is not an electrical worker.

    “Supply worker”
    A person who is employed by a network operator.


    There is some semantics to get our head around here:
    The way I read it, is that the term 'Work' (as in 'electrical work), relates to the meaning of work as relating to effort in return for wages, salary etc.

    The reason I say this, is given the context of the remaining classifications of people in the report- General public (not performing work as part of their employment), and Non Electrical Workers being those who are working (for income) but not an electrical worker by the preceeding definition. Interestingly, the remaining category- 'Supply worker' uses the word 'employed' which would make it all the more clearer if it was used consistently throughout the rest of the definitions (we also see instances of 'work', 'occupation', 'employed' and 'employment' in the definitions).


    Yes, I agree that the 'licensed and authorized to do so' part applies to the general public in NZ, but note the sneaky use of the word 'AND':
    "A person who carries out electrical work and is licensed or authorized to do so."
    ie, you have to be employed as, AND licensed to (or not, if not applicable in your jursidiction), to be considered an electrical worker.

  3. #63
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    Jan 2004
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    Mackay North Qld
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    6,446

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    ADDED BY ADMIN

    DISCLAIMER

    No liability is accepted by The Senior Administrator or the Metal Work Forum's moderators
    for advice offered by members posting replies
    or asking questions regarding electrical work.
    We strongly advise contacting a Licensed Tradesperson for all electrical work.

    WARNING

    Information supplied within posts is not to be considered as detailed formal instructions to complete a task.
    Members following such information do so at their own risk

  4. #64
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    Jul 2011
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    Adelaide
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    837

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    Sure. I understand your angle, but I respectfully disagree. I do think that it is a poorly contrived definition and could be clearer, but I guess that not every policy clerk can knock it out of the park every day of the week, amiright? Peanuts, monkeys etc.

    Fist the definitions from your source:
    "Electrical worker”
    A person who carries out electrical work and is licensed or authorized to do so.
    “General public”
    A person who is not doing any work as part of his or her employment or under a contract of work, or training at the time the incident occurs
    “Non-electrical Worker”
    A person who is in the process of carrying out their occupation and is not an electrical worker.

    “Supply worker”
    A person who is employed by a network operator.


    There is some semantics to get our head around here:
    The way I read it, is that the term 'Work' (as in 'electrical work), relates to the meaning of work as relating to effort in return for wages, salary etc.
    I disagree it is clear electrical work is work done to an electrical system (paid or unpaid). Otherwise the work NZ DIYers do to their electrical systems is not electrical work which is clearly a nonesense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    The reason I say this, is given the context of the remaining classifications of people in the report- General public (not performing work as part of their employment),
    You gave the definition accurately then misunderstood it.
    “General public”
    A person who is not doing any work as part of his or her employment or under a contract of work, or training at the time the incident occurs

    A member of the general public is simply someone who is not at work or being trained when they got electrocuted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    and Non Electrical Workers being those who are working (for income) but not an electrical worker by the preceeding definition.

    Interestingly, the remaining category- 'Supply worker' uses the word 'employed' which would make it all the more clearer if it was used consistently throughout the rest of the definitions (we also see instances of 'work', 'occupation', 'employed' and 'employment' in the definitions).
    You hinge your whole argument around the definition of supply worker.
    “Supply worker”
    A person who is employed by a network operator.

    The reason why they mention employment here and not in electrical worker is because there are limits on what a NZ DIYer can do and that does not extend to the supply network. Further a dodgy licenced electrician doing work on the supply network without being authorised is not a supply worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post

    Yes, I agree that the 'licensed and authorized to do so' part applies to the general public in NZ, but note the sneaky use of the word 'AND':
    "A person who carries out electrical work and is licensed or authorized to do so."
    ie, you have to be employed as, AND licensed to (or not, if not applicable in your jursidiction), to be considered an electrical worker.
    The only people who are not licensed to do electrical work but are authorised to are NZ DIYers. The definition does not say they have to be employed that is your addition. If it where to exclude NZ DIYers then it would be unnecessary to include the subgroup that is unlicensed but authorised. Since the definition does clearly include those unlicensed but authorised then it can only be in an acknowledgement that electrical work is carried out by unlicensed NZ DIYers because there is no other group which is unlicensed yet authorised to do electrical work.

    So when it comes to the stats the NZ DIYers are bunched in with the NZ licensed electricians and are doing quite well at not killing themselves.
    If you took a moment to understand what electrical work these NZ DIYers can do and under what circumstances you would realise they have far more at stake for dodgy work than any licensed electrician (other than one who works on his own family house).

    Your seem to think adding some extra conditions to these definitions is something you can do without asking the original researcher.

  5. #65
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    Jul 2010
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    Melbourne
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    9,088

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theberylbloke View Post
    The simplist way to to prevent someone plugging in a 15 amp rated appliance to a 10 amp rated socket would be to make it physically impossible to fit them together i.e. a larger earth pin. Today we would call that an "engineering" control measure.
    Yet(as RC stated in post 25) it in no way stops a 20 amp LOAD being connected to the 10 amp circuit. So nothing to do with the welder then, got something else?

    What percentage of general population do you think give any thought to the load on the circuit before they plug their new toaster in? What percentage of them even know which GPO is on which circuit? Won't someone think about the children!

    Quote Originally Posted by Theberylbloke View Post
    Firstly, still plenty of 10 amp circuits run in unknown conductors protected by fuses loaded, supposedly, with 10 amp wire.
    By that argument we shouldn't plug anything into anything or cross the road for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theberylbloke View Post
    Secondly, there is a risk, more likely with untrained laymen, of getting the polarity wrong
    So for safety sparkies should file the earth pin down as they cant be trusted to wire a plug either.

    As for warranties being void, this must be some of the great Australian back up and service I hear so much about. Would anyone care to postulate a fault in a welder that could happen with a 10amp plug that wouldn't have happened with a 15amp plug?

  6. #66
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    Oct 2006
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    Armidale NSW
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    52
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    915

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Would anyone care to postulate a fault in a welder that could happen with a 10amp plug that wouldn't have happened with a 15amp plug?
    I doubt there is any, however the user has effectively (illegally?) modified the equipment, and the manufacturer has a right to refuse a warranty claim on those grounds.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  7. #67
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    Aug 2008
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    near Rockhampton
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    This is more of an argument between people who like big government and those that like small government.

    big government, less risk, more regulation, less freedoms.

    small government, more risk, less regulations, more freedoms.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  8. #68
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    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    This is more of an argument between people who like big government and those that like small government.

    big government, less risk, more regulation, less freedoms.

    small government, more risk, less regulations, more freedoms.
    This is about cartel behaviours combined with poor industry standards.

    Look at the number of OTR Electrical Expiations Issued in six months in SA https://www.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/...1-Feb-2018.pdf while electricians are allowed to operate in a way that avoids transparency they will have no reason to lift their standards.

    The fines are also laughable. The holder of a license should be held to a much higher standard than a member of the general public.

  9. #69
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    Jan 2004
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    Mackay North Qld
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    It is an argument of who can, who cannot and those who never, ever, under any circumstances should be allowed to even try.
    illegally wired welder circa 2009 copy.jpg

    Would it surprise you to know that this photo was once posted in the Welding forum under the old WoodWork Forum.

    The idiot poster believed he knew what he was doing.

    He told us in the post that this was attached to a hot water system in Townsville. Worse still, it was in a block of flats.

    My point here is electrical dicussion in this forum, about what should be legal, only serves to encourage people like this.

    The electrical authorities use electrical licenses and permits to at least identify who are at the very least, capable. I fully support it.

    This electrical licensing has been around for as long as I can remember and is not a recent development of big government.

  10. #70
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
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    That actually looks pretty ingenious - I assume the guy was after a higher-current circuit than available in his flat, so pretty clever to think of the HWS circuit - definitely an option to keep in mind.

    As for compliance & safety, he hasn't modified the plug, and he's used cable ties.

  11. #71
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    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    And it looks like he painted the ends of the neutral wire black to prevent a wiring error. Clearly a safety conscious person.
    Chris

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    My point here is electrical dicussion in this forum, about what should be legal, only serves to encourage people like this.
    How?
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  13. #73
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    Not remotely funny. I am appalled that both of you choose to make light of something that serious.

    Perhaps an electrician ( a real one) would like to point out the potential for those that genuinely don't know?

    Grahame

  14. #74
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    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    It is an argument of who can, who cannot and those who never, ever, under any circumstances should be allowed to even try.
    illegally wired welder circa 2009 copy.jpg
    You could argue that but then one could argue licensing is about protectionism for an industry. Every single one of us you included use devices not wired by electricians on a daily basis. These vary in size from laptops to machine tools. You might try to argue that they are built to a standard but frequently many of these items are dead on arrival proving that quality control is non existent. So it seems only electrical work actually performed in this country is the real thing that is special.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    Would it surprise you to know that this photo was once posted in the Welding forum under the old WoodWork Forum.

    The idiot poster believed he knew what he was doing.

    He told us in the post that this was attached to a hot water system in Townsville. Worse still, it was in a block of flats.
    Here is a page with a number of 6 monthly publications that give a list of faults that qualified electricians have been fined for in SA https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/energy-...lation-roundup. Unlike lawyers who are named and shamed on the Conduct Commissioners website, it is impossible to find out who these shonky operators are. So your single example really sinks into obscurity when the actual licensed electricians the people you have faith in are found actually guilty of dangerous acts every single month and are allowed to continue doing so and you or I can't tell if we are hiring one of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    My point here is electrical dicussion in this forum, about what should be legal, only serves to encourage people like this.
    That is very much like the argument about open source versus closed source when it come to security. It is always the open source operating systems that are trusted with the most critical tasks. The fact that our current laws don't allow us to adequately inspect our electricians work makes it very much a closed source type situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    The electrical authorities use electrical licenses and permits to at least identify who are at the very least, capable. I fully support it.
    Most of the crap bought from China particularly clone devices of such things as VFDs have never been certified and have never been touched by an electrician. Does your support for such regulation include abstinence from the use of such products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    This electrical licensing has been around for as long as I can remember and is not a recent development of big government.
    I can assure you there was electricity before electrical licensing. Neither Tesla or Edison were license holders.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    I am appalled that both of you choose to make light of something that serious.
    Get off your high horse buddy. You're embarrassing yourself.
    Chris

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