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  1. #1
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    Default 220 Volt single to 3 Phase VFDs

    Forum members may be interested to know that not all inverter drives being marketed here on ebay are suitable for use in Australia according to the vendors. I am looking for a VFD for the local Mens Shed, and cheap is a desirable attribute. Almost all single phase VFDs have a 220 volt nominal input, and as the mains can sometimes be north of 250 volts in this country, I thought that I should just make sure that the vendor was happy to guarantee the unit if used under those conditions. the string of messages is shown below.
    I know that most people have had no problems operating on voltages somewhat higher than the 220 volts most list as the input voltage, and I am curious to see if many have had any problems as a result.
    Rob.

    New message from: ellieshang (636,469)
    Dear prues-rob,
    Thanks for your letter,
    We are so sorry to say that the item is not suitable for use in Australia,Hope you can understand.
    Best wishes.

    Your previous message
    Just a follow up to remind you as you requested. Any word yet on the warranty of these units if used on the standard mains supply in Australia of a nominal 240 Volts, and not the indicated input requirement of this inverter of 220 volts.
    Regards,
    Rob.
    Dear prues-rob,
    Thanks for your letter,
    I need to check it with the supplier,i will tell you when i get reply,OK?
    If we forget to write to you in 2 days,can you please kindly write to us to remind us ?Thanks for your understanding.
    Best wishes.
    Your previous message
    in your listing this item is described as being suitable for 220v input. The trouble is that in Australia the mains voltage is a nominal 240v, and can rise to over 250 volts.
    My question is will your inverter give reliable service if used on the national electrical power grid?
    What guarantee do you give with this inverter when used on the national power grid?
    Thank you and best wishes,
    Rob.
    Price: AU $108.89
    Buy it now
    Watchers: 104
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    Get to know the seller ellieshang

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    TBH I would have no idea of what our supply voltages do in terms of fluctuations.

    Call me simple but i just flick a switch and expect stuff to work!

    I run 3 Hy VFDs and had no issues. BTW i assume you mean 250V rms as in actual fact 240v actually gets to about 339v p-p anyway.

    Cheers

    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  3. #3
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    Mar 2014
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    South of Adelaide
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    Default

    We changed from 240V to 230V mains a few years ago to get in line with international standards. The Maximum supply voltage you should get is 253V.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    I think Victorian and Tas nominal voltage is 230, not 240. You are 10v closer to being ok!
    Neil

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    The Whitsundays
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    229

    Default Voltage fluctuations

    Hi Simon,

    Australia had a nominal 240, plus or minus 6%, spec for voltage. That meant 226 volts to 254 volts. I think it is now 230 volt with a wider swing to the upside ( I think 14% ?) and still 6% down. The authorities I have worked for have various sets of rules about how long the volts can be outside the limits before they do anything about it. Anything above 254 volts gets looked at pretty quickly these days as Solar systems start to fall off line at 255-256 volts.

    Queensland has done some trials on the 230volt nominal system and are going to move to this "shortly" and slowly as it's quite a big job, both in the field and for engineering staff doing the calculations. I don't know what other states have decided on.

    Actual voltage fluctuations can have a huge range of causes, way too many to attempt a comprehensive list of here.

    The only way to be really sure of what your volts are doing is plug in a volt meter and check it from time to time.

    I tend to think it's unlikely that plugging in a 220 volt rated VFD to 240 volts will cause it to fail immediately. You would have to imagine the designers would allow for components that would survive some overvoltage. It may shorten it's life though.

    Still if they are not going to warranty it, i'd stay clear.

    Cheers

    The Beryl Bloke
    Equipment er.... Projects I own

    Lathes - Sherline 4410 CNC
    Mills - Deckel FP2LB, Hardinge TM-UM, Sherline 2000 CNC.

  6. #6
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    melbourne australia
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    Default

    Here's the voltage trace of one of my phases from a couple of days ago. Until recently we were regularly exceeding 256V, causing my solar inverter to reduce its output. United Energy came out and dropped two taps on the street transformer, which they told me is about 7V. Note the average is well above 220V.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Chris

  7. #7
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    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
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    Default

    As far as I know, there are no longer any countries in the world running on nominal 220V. Europe went up to 230V a couple of decades ago, the USA went to 115 (and therefore 230V across their two actives). The only continent generally still on 220V is Africa. There are a few small countries still on 240 and a few odd places on 220V.....
    I doubt very much that any mass produced equipment is limited to 220V for reliable running.... Almost all VFDs I've seen are rated 200 to 250V when you look at the manuals.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  8. #8
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropetangler View Post
    I know that most people have had no problems operating on voltages somewhat higher than the 220 volts most list as the input voltage, and I am curious to see if many have had any problems as a result.
    I have VI meter on my breaker box and on several of my machines so I can watch what's going on.
    Usually mains V sits between 238 and 242V but I have also seen it as high as 250 and as low as 228V.

    Since 2011 I have used 12 different 220V rated VFDs in my shed and currently have 7 connected to machinery. I managed to blow the caps on one but that had nothing to do with the V supply.

    The major issues will be with the ratings on Caps and components. A better quality VFD will use better (higher V rated) components so this will cover most of the higher V rated.

    For the Mens Shed at which I am a member I purchased a 3P-3P Powtran VFD direct from the manufacturer and they only cost about the same as the eBay cheapies but they are far superior in terms of quality. I have since bought two of these for myself.

    I discuss these in the WWF thread VFD install summaries
    The main advantage with them is that they are all true Vector drive VFDs.
    They also come with braking circuitry built in for an extra US$5.

    There are several different model ranges available from the compact size budget level 160s to the pro level 9000 series.

    Here is a comparison of a 160 budget level 1.5 kW Powtran with a HY 1.5 kW VFD showing how compact the PT VFD is



    Here is a comparison of a 2.2kW Powtran PI9000 (LHS) with a 3kW HY on the right.
    Notice how much "chunkier" the Powtran is. They also use bigger heat sinks, a bigger fan etc.


    The twin line (versus single line) display and the speed sensitive knob on the front of the powtran makes it much easier to set frequencies manual and make program in much easier. The PT also has memories built into the control panel so you can store everything and even move the control panel around to other VFDs.

    The PTs cost a bit more but they have so many advantages that make the price difference over the cheapies meaningless.

  9. #9
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    Default

    Thanks gents for all your contributions. I am pretty sure that the VFD which was the subject of my enquiry would have been OK but it seems that either the wholesaler or manufacturer wasn't prepared to risk it, so I don't think that I will either.
    Simon you are correct in that I was referring to RMS voltages, as that is what the voltage inputs and outputs of VFDs would be referenced to.
    The gradual lowering of mains voltages has been on the agenda for a long time now, but every time I ever measured the mains voltage here at home, it was always around the 240 Volt mark as measured on my trusty Digitech OM1539 digital meter, a $30 - $40 meter not calibrated since manufacture (if then). I took another measurement last night at about 11.00pm and again this morning, and both times the reading was 236 volts to the nearest volt. Maybe the voltage is being lowered, IIRC it was usually a volt or two higher than the nominal 240volts and now it is a few volts lower, but it is still very close to the old 240 volt standard, at least as best as I can measure it. It seems to me that the power authorities are playing with words and not doing too much to change anything for the better, if as The Beryl Bloke says that they are lowering the nominal voltage to 230, but allowing a higher up-side than previously. It ends up being much the same as we have had previously, except that the voltage swings will be much higher while still staying in spec. 216-262V new spec, versus 226-254 V old spec.
    BobL as usual a very comprehensive summary of features to look out for, thank you, I will see what I can find in a Powtran VFD offering.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    Here's the voltage trace of one of my phases from a couple of days ago. Until recently we were regularly exceeding 256V, causing my solar inverter to reduce its output. United Energy came out and dropped two taps on the street transformer, which they told me is about 7V. Note the average is well above 220V.
    I have read the rooftop solar phenomenon causes mains electricity voltage to rise causing headaches for the electricity suppliers. It is one of the reason electricity prices have risen (the network operators have to spend more on the network to now cater for millions of small scale unreliable generators). It really should never have been allowed.

    Our electricity voltage now runs at 250V nearly all the time, due to installation of a boost transformer on our main line to cater for a large rock crushing plant further along the line. They were apparently suffering severe voltage drop when their crushers jammed and the motors started drawing 1000+ amps.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    I have read the rooftop solar phenomenon causes mains electricity voltage to rise causing headaches for the electricity suppliers.
    True. When the sun comes out the grid voltage rises. That's why the AS was changed recently to require inverters to throttle back to keep their output below 256V.

    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    It is one of the reason electricity prices have risen (the network operators have to spend more on the network to now cater for millions of small scale unreliable generators).
    Possibly true. But they are going to have to upgrade the network to deal with renewables eventually. Might as well be now.

    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    It really should never have been allowed.
    What shouldn't have been allowed? Solar panels on roofs?
    Chris

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post



    Possibly true. But they are going to have to upgrade the network to deal with renewables eventually. Might as well be now.
    Maybe, eventually nuclear will be the only option though, if people want a reliable power source. But there are too many well off silly people around yet for that option to be viable.



    What shouldn't have been allowed? Solar panels on roofs?
    Small scale intermittent suppliers injecting surplus electricity back into the grid.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  13. #13
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    Gotta love this forum. A thread about VFD voltages generates a post about nuclear power!

    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    But there are too many well off silly people around yet for that option to be viable.
    I may be well-off, but I ain't silly. My solar panels will pay for themselves in about 7 years. After that I'm making money. Right now my pool pumps are running for free. Later my air-con will be running for free.
    Chris

  14. #14
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    Hi R.C.
    you may get your wish of no "unreliable" generators on the grid one day soon. As battery prices go down and cycle numbers go up, more and more people are likely to stop putting power back into the grid and store it themselves.
    As far as being allowed, the electricity generators had no hope in hell to supply all the power required without roof top PV systems a few years ago. THere hadn'r been any new large power stations built for decades and the population had almost doubled since then...

    I'm surprised your provider hasn't adjusted your property transformer or installed one to reduce your property voltage - given that they can be held resposible for damage caused by overvoltage (if not by you then by your insurance)...

    Also: @Chris: the voltage seems to go up on your graph around 5 hrs AFTER the sun comes up. I really see no correlation in your graph to sunshine. I see high voltage at 3am when there is lo demand and high voltage at 11am when industry is going full power.... Voltage variation is a representation of LOAD (and therefore losses in transmission cables).
    What shows supply variations is a bit more subtle and complicated: the electricity providers track FREQUENCY to do that. Grid frequency varies by fractions of Hertz as suppliers come on line and drop out again - including solar generators. That is the MUCH more complicated parameter to manage and control. However, the challenge is exactly the same for gas-fired, coal fired, hydro or solar power generation. Coal fired generators are the MOST difficult to manage in that context, because of enormous inertia.

    Lastly, most solar power generated doesn't travel far down the grid - the available current to the grid gets used up LONG before it gets to high voltage transmission lines. Your next door neighbor or the nearest commercial user will use up whatever you might share with the grid.
    I'd actually be interested in seeing a current flow map of local and long distance grid transmission. Be interesting to actully visualise the effects of sunshine on the grid....
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack620 View Post
    Gotta love this forum. A thread about VFD voltages generates a post about nuclear power!
    But that is how normal discussion between friends goes.



    I may be well-off, but I ain't silly. My solar panels will pay for themselves in about 7 years. After that I'm making money. Right now my pool pumps are running for free. Later my air-con will be running for free.
    The sillybit was not referring to you, but the ones who think their electricity use is only what their bill is, totally disregarding how much electricity such entities like hospitals and high rise office buildings and rock crushing plants and so on use. Some people seem to be of the belief their electricity use stops at their property boundary. I have always thought we need to build a hospital that solely runs on renewable energy sources, and the true believers can go there when they are ill. I can remember growing up and our total electricity supply was a 2kva Davey alternator powered by a 4hp YB engine (Both items Australian made)

    I love being able to flick a switch whenever I can and the light goes on. My parents never saw mains power until they were in their thirties. Before that it was all intermittent diesel generators and kerosene fridges. (Intermittent as you could run the generator all the time due to cost) Summer time was mosquito nets and restless nights. No fans, no air conditioners.

    I do not care how electricity is generated so long as it is affordable for everyone and reliable and preferably creates new industries and research rather then just buy something in from overseas and all we do is mix some cement to install it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    Hi R.C.
    you may get your wish of no "unreliable" generators on the grid one day soon. As battery prices go down and cycle numbers go up, more and more people are likely to stop putting power back into the grid and store it themselves.
    As far as being allowed, the electricity generators had no hope in hell to supply all the power required without roof top PV systems a few years ago. THere hadn'r been any new large power stations built for decades and the population had almost doubled since then...
    I think they are a long way off yet. Another thing that is odd is that while some people go on about the emissions cost, the social and real environmental cost is never included by them. You only have to google about the working conditions and environmental destruction caused by mining rare earth elements and other things needed by the renewable market and suddenly it is not such a great thing.

    Rare Earth elements are not rare, but the processing of them and making them still to be easily affordable can only be done when it does not matter if your workers are poisoned or killed.

    There used to be a solar cell manufacturing plant in Sydney. Where is it now?
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

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