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  1. #31
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    Hi Peter.
    There is patent category called "Innovation Patent" in Australia for exactly this sort of incremental development. I also have not been issued with it yet, but the application is registered. That may be enough to stop someone else buggering up the sales of the first production batch. At least we hope so


    Sent from my InFocus M808 using Tapatalk
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  2. #32
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    Hi Joe,
    Wish I'd known about the "Innovation Patent" 20 years ago.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  3. #33
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    It was very similar to what was known as a 'Petty patent'. It probably would not matter though - some of the flaws with the patent system are that the holder is the one who has to defend the patent, and it only applies in the country that it is granted in. Therefore if someone in say India decides to make and sell Joe's holder there and a patent has not been granted in that country, there is nothing he can do to stop them. Further more, if someone decided to import those India holders into Australia, Joe would have to stump up the cash to prove a patent infringement. Even if he was in the right, it would not take long before any profit he has made is used up in lawyer's fees.
    Patents sound appealing but really they are not usually a viable option for a low cost product with a niche market.

    Michael

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Patents sound appealing but really they are not usually a viable option for a low cost product with a niche market.

    Michael
    The biological (patenting genes) and software patents granted that never should have been has made the system a farce. I think that the cost of enforcement falling on the patent holders is an excellent thing.

    AFAIK you can only recover actual losses too, no penalty damages, and it's a strictly civil case. I could probably have patented various bits of software but far too much hassle for no return other than kudos.

    PDW

  5. #35
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    The whole idea of a patent like this is to formally register when you want to start manufacture. Not kudos or preventing others innovating.
    It gives protection from someone else demanding loyalties for something THEY have registered or patented. The patent application identifies who registered what first and who owes royalties or license fees to whom.
    So if you developed or invented something you want to manufacture, then a patent application is good insurance.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  6. #36
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    Default ER32 to be available shortly!

    Well, as proposed, ER32 12-sided collet blocks (with a larger across-the-flats dimension than the nut diameter) have been made. They will arrive in Australia shortly.
    As with the ER40 blocks available already, they will allow 1,2,3,4,6 and 12 position direct indexing and workpiece replacement without removal from jigs or fixtures. Both can also be used vertically, as there are no protrusions on the end opposite the collet and nut.
    M&G Productions are the sole distributor in Australia, USA, Europe and China.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    The biological (patenting genes) and software patents granted that never should have been has made the system a farce. I think that the cost of enforcement falling on the patent holders is an excellent thing.

    AFAIK you can only recover actual losses too, no penalty damages, and it's a strictly civil case. I could probably have patented various bits of software but far too much hassle for no return other than kudos.

    PDW
    Do they actually patent genes or processes to identify genes. For example last year or the year before there was a court case over a breast cancer gene. From what I understand, a company had managed to patent a process to be able to isolate or identify the gene and that is what the court case was over.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    Do they actually patent genes or processes to identify genes. For example last year or the year before there was a court case over a breast cancer gene. From what I understand, a company had managed to patent a process to be able to isolate or identify the gene and that is what the court case was over.
    That patent should not have been granted in the first place; the rules are that naturally occurring things (like genes) can not be patented. The process they used was not new and for that matter not even very novel. The court case was to knock the patent on the head. I wrote about this case when studying IP law. To me the most ridiculous thing was that under the patent if you tested for the gene and were positive you actually (in theory) infringed the patent.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    The whole idea of a patent like this is to formally register when you want to start manufacture. Not kudos or preventing others innovating.
    It gives protection from someone else demanding loyalties for something THEY have registered or patented. The patent application identifies who registered what first and who owes royalties or license fees to whom.
    So if you developed or invented something you want to manufacture, then a patent application is good insurance.
    We may have to agree to disagree here Joe. The purpose of a patent is to put a peg in the ground, and it is meant to formally establish who invented something 'first'. In reality it establishes who got to the patent office first. However, the way the system has developed it is a shambles. Two issues I have with it are -
    • The system is slanted heavily towards large companies who have the money to file patents and to pay to defend them.
    • Because most patents are published on the internet, it means that anyone in the world can see your patent, regardless of where your patent applies. As you have to apply for patents country by country (and there are around 186 of them at the moment I think). Some guy in say Italy can see your patent, decide it is a good idea and (if you haven't got an EU patent) make and distribute them without penalty

    My view is that for items that have no great complexity and can be easily copied a patent only draws attention to your idea while not giving any real protection. They only become valuable when there is a novel scientific/ engineering principle involved, preferably one which takes some brain power to copy (Australian law says you must show 'the best way' to make implement your invention these days) and involving a confidential proprietary process.

    Michael

  9. #39
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    is it true that some countries do not recognise or abide with the laws of patents?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    ......We may have to agree to disagree here Joe. .....
    Michael
    Happy to, Michael.
    The point I was making about me applying for a patent was to protect myself from being asked to pay royalties by someone else who got to the patent office later than me starting manufacture and distribution.

    I agree that the whole thing is a shambles and probably only relevant to large companies and complex 'embodiments' of ideas.

    I was mostly curious about the process and its shapes and forms. The expenses of defending a patent if you actually got one (and paid for it) are truly horrendous.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo View Post
    is it true that some countries do not recognise or abide with the laws of patents?

    Sort of - officially they do (they have signed the treaty) but it takes a while to get things moving if you spot an infringement.

    Michael

  12. #42
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    As an enhancement maybe add a thread to the rear so one can put in stops say a simple bolt with two nuts. Useful for batch work.
    Regards,
    Tom

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by topari View Post
    As an enhancement maybe add a thread to the rear so one can put in stops say a simple bolt with two nuts. Useful for batch work.
    Regards,
    Tom
    Hi Tom, thanks for your interest in developing the ER blocks.
    I must admit I can't picture your suggestion. Where are you suggesting the thread to be cut? In the bore? (26mm on ER32 and 30mm on ER40 blocks).
    Or just an axial hole or two into the endface opposite the collet end?


    Cheers, Joe
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  14. #44
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    Hi Joe, I think what Tom's refering to, is a threaded hole in the back of the block to be able to set up a stop arrangement, for doing multiple copies. Possibly an 8mm thread would suffice, it would be easier to do before they were hardened, rather than trying to do it afterwards.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  15. #45
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    I did it like this on the 'Michael Block'
    P1040160 (Small).JPG

    I could have gone smaller but figured that I could use my 3/8" clamp set and save having more loose pieces floating around.
    The base has keys and a clamping hole in it so that it can be secured to the bed and the collet block removed and replaced without losing position. For longer parts that bracket is removed (it can also turn around and act as a stop only on the 6 sided block); length control is then done with a miscellanious item clamped to the mill bed. Its section is also 12 sided so that I can do square sections for example just by turning the collet part. Repeatability on all 12 positions was better than 0.1mm from memory.

    Michael

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