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  1. #31
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    Isn't it just one of the best feelings.
    Well done Michael.

    Phil

  2. #32
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    Oct 2011
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    Lots of little stuff to go yet Phil, but yes - for a plan to work and come together first time does give you a thrill.

    Michael

  3. #33
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    So the train of thought goes like this - one of the first things I need to do once the grinder is working is grind a bar to see what the headstock/ tailstock alignment is like. To do that I need coolant. To use coolant I need to have the pump working and the coolant return working. For the coolant pump to be working (safely) I need to mount the control switches. If I'm mounting those then I should really finish off the VFD wiring so that everything is in the same spot...

    As a result, this weekend was spent not doing more on the clutch, but sorting out the electrics (VFD and coolant), making up a small splash deflector and starting on the return plumbing.

    I made up a box for my switches to mount in out of some Al sheet - simple bending exercise - checked my bends were 90 degrees and then welded up the corners. Trouble is, when I clamped it for welding I managed to twist it. One of those things you don't notice until it's finished and then irritates the hell out of you...
    First thing on the redo list...
    P1030562 (Medium).JPG
    The splash deflector sits on the cross slide and stops grit and coolant getting onto the slide. I can't think why anyone would take it off in the first place - an insignificant part that sits in an out of the way place, but still it was removed. As the wheel moves back the deflector pivots up. This one is made of sheet steel but I think originals were cast going by the pictures I have.
    P1030559 (Medium).JPG
    Sorting out the VFD wiring took most of my available time this weekend but I did manage to start on the drain line. The open threaded hole in the photo above is 1/2" BSP and factory specified drain point. The pump set came with a 8mm diameter drain line but as the delivery line was also 8mm, I decided to be cautious and go bigger. I had scrap of aluminium bronze lying around so used that to make up a tube fitting - 1/2" BSP thread, tail for 5/8" tubing. That stuff turns really nicely. The bore through my fitting is only 13.5mm but it will be freer flowing than the 6mm bore of the fitting supplied with the pump.
    P1030564 (Medium).JPG
    Not fitted yet as the plastic tube I bought was shipped in a coil. I have a short length threaded over a piece of barstock in the hope it may straighten. Perhaps some help with the heat gun may be needed.

    Still need to make up the supply nozzle for the coolant to be directed into the right spot, and plug some of the holes previous owners have thought necessary to make before I have a functioning coolant system.

    Michael

  4. #34
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    Sep 2012
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    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    Hi Michael,
    Not fitted yet as the plastic tube I bought was shipped in a coil. I have a short length threaded over a piece of barstock in the hope it may straighten. Perhaps some help with the heat gun may be needed.
    I tried that trick, once ! I now have a 30 inch length of plastic covered bar. It won't come off no way
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  5. #35
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    As a minor detour, I found this on the net - it has been 'modified' to lose the countershaft arrangement and have motors directly drive things. The selling price? 3000 pounds (it was marked as sold btw)
    IMG_2958 (Large).jpg
    Not bad money if you can get it but having a relatively large motor sitting on the work head ruins the look of it for me.

    Michael

  6. #36
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    The nozzle to apply the coolant to the wheel/ work is an interesting beast. For a start the hole it mounts in is 7/16 diameter and that is not a standard sized tube, so fabrication was not possible without custom made tubing anyway. I managed to pic up some copper pipe for the application end from the local LP gas place - annealed which means it can be bent to shape but also means parting does not work...
    I wanted to copy the general style of the original so this started as a length of brass bar 1 1/4" diameter. That was turned into a piece of brass flat 16mm by 30mm, an "L" shape cut from that, radii put on the edges of the head end and then put in the lathe for the main part to be turned into a round section.
    P1030566 (Medium).JPG
    It's roughly 125mm long, so the hole down the middle (5/16") is 120mm long. Luckily I had a long series drill around although holding was interesting. Originally I was going to do this in the lathe but the chuck bore was not quite big enough for the 30mm end, so I ended up in a collet chuck in the drill press.
    I did not do too badly - no break outs although a bit nerve racking imagining not getting the depth right
    P1030567 (Medium).JPG
    The copper end piece was assembled with loctite bearing locker - Phil's right - that stuff really goes off on copper. Literally put it together, 'hang on, I'll just..." and - too late. I needed to swage the tube down a little to get a good fit and was stumped until I remembered my ER collets. Mounted one in the lathe, put the tube in, tightened just slightly and the size went from 9.53 to 9.44 easily for a slide in fit in a 9.53 (3/8") hole. Attaching the hoses I'll do at the moment with worm drive hose clamps and then use ear clips when I'm happy with it all.

    Coolant nozzle on the grinder with a wheel fitted. It sticks out like that so as the wheel is worn or dressed down the nozzle can slide back into the housing. Initially it was going to be a 90 degree fitting but the 15 degree kick made positioning the nozzle a little easier. That is one of the new custom made wheels on there - first time I've fitted one. I put the side guard back on after taking the photos and discovered that the wheels were not made 3/8 thick but measure 10.2mm - so there is a slight touch. A couple of small spacers should solve that one.
    P1030568 (Medium).JPG P1030569 (Medium).JPG
    All I have to do now to finish the coolant system is a bulkhead style fitting to get the coolant from the pump underneath up to the nozzle.

    Michael

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    All I have to do now to finish the coolant system is a bulkhead style fitting to get the coolant from the pump underneath up to the nozzle.
    Such an optimist...
    The bulkhead fitting was made, (the brown stuff is gasket goo, to seal)
    P1030572 (Medium).JPG
    as was the connection to the back of the delivery pipe - a screw on fitting in case I needed to remove it down the track for some reason
    P1030570 (Medium).JPG
    So all done.
    P1030571 (Medium).JPG
    However, I thought I'd better fill it and check for leaks (not that I was expecting any issues). Here is where the optimism starts running the show...

    Firstly, the machine is on a very slight backwards slope, so the coolant is not draining properly. I'll probably have to take 5 or so mm off the front legs to get it properly leveled. The other issue (second photo) is that someone has drilled a hole in the end of the tray - possibly for an additional drain pipe, so that after running for a while I wondered why there was a puddle on the floor. None of the photos I have of other machines has this so not really necessary.
    P1030573 (Medium).JPG P1030574 (Medium).JPG
    I also found that the sealing on my oil drippers was not good enough either, so more work needed on them.

    Of course I had coolant running now and everyone knows that running coolant while the wheel is not rotating is bad practice (the coolant can seep into the wheel and if stationary could be enough to put the wheel out of balance).
    So - make up an improvised drive dog (I was given 3 dogs when I got the machine but they are not from one of these - they are too big) from a piece of 1/8" wire and a hose clamp and away we go.
    P1030575 (Medium).JPG
    Results are equivocal - metal certainly was being removed
    P1030576 (Medium).JPG
    The piece of stock I was grinding came out nice and smooth, but one end was slightly larger than the other (1.2 thou over 120mm), so the tailstock/ headstock alignment needs work.
    I measured the surface finish on the resultant bar - now remember this is on mild steel of unknown pedigree, without the anti- backlash weight, using a dodgy drive dog, the wheel had not been dressed and the clutch is still bodged together so the speed is not uniform. Regardless of that I got Ra 2 um or around 60 microinches (you could get a finish like that turning if you tried). The maker's literature claims 2 microinches is possible, so a bit to go yet.
    P1030577 (Medium).JPG

    Michael

  8. #38
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    Total finishment is still eluding me but it's not for want of trying...

    Today I managed to get a backlash weight sorted. The first photo shows the underside of the grinder. There is a cable there that runs over a pulley to provide a constant pull on the carriage away from the work. As the weight attached is one of the first things to be removed when moving it, it of course has been lost. A couple of years ago I put an article in the Leicester Mercury asking if anyone had any information on these machines (as this was where Jones and Shipman was based while these machines were in production). Most were from people wishing me well but one email was from Bill who gave me rough sizes and a weight for the weight. He thought was lead but as the size and the weight have a density similar to steel/ cast iron, I'm guessing that it was CI (cheap and available). I had a piece exactly the sizes mentioned so on it went. (for the record it is 5kg - Bill's estimate was 8 to 10 lbs). The clevis and pin fastening is the OEM method.
    P1020307 (Medium).JPG P1030603 (Medium).JPG
    The other thing for finishing off was the dresser. This is a separate item that can be removed at will and I made mine from a piece of CI that Kryn gave me. It's been made for some time but was waiting to be painted and a hold down bolt made up. With the weather we have been having getting paint to dry is a long process but it happened. First photo is mine; second photo is OEM. I submitted an article to MEW on machining castings from solid (due to be pushed in issue 243 - July this year) and one of the comments made was that some of the things I'd done if they were painted you would be hard pressed to tell them from the OEM version. Yep.

    P1030605 (Medium).JPG jones_shipman28.jpg

    Having sorted backlash and being able to dress the wheel (which I did with great satisfaction), I was back to alignment issues. There are two alignments to get right. One is the parallelism of the axis of the centres to the axis of bed travel (vertical plane) and the other is the parallelism of the centre to centre axis to the bed (horizontal plane). A test bar could sort them I guess but it's a question of where to start. (I like to save test bars for one axis at a time).
    A difference in the parallelism of the centre axis to the travel of the bed will show as a change in diameter from one end to the other. Parallelism of the centre to centre axis to the bed will show as an hourglass shape on a test piece.

    The graph below shows what has happened. Plots identified as 'Grind x' are straight measurements from a trial. Plots listed as 'Grind x + offset' have been proportioned so that the start and finish diameters are made to be the same (in graphical terms the line has been rotated)

    Grind 1 was with the bed against the rotational stops - a mis-start really as a clock along the bed showed that when on the stops the bed was not parallel to the axis of travel, so the stops may need remaking. Grind 2 is with the bed aligned to be parallel to the axis of travel (this is typically where I would use a test bar to check). As you can see, the diameter at the T/S is larger than at the H/S so shows that the T/S needs to move in around 5 thou, but notice the dip in the offset curve of 1.4 thou. This shows that the axis of the centres is not parallel in the horizontal plane (ie parallel to the bed).
    Grind 3 is the same as grind 2 but with 40 thou of packer under the tailstock. The offset curve for this is almost flat - the dip is 3 tenths of a thou - that is, if it was skewed so that the H/S and T/S were the same diameter, the diameter would be 3 tenths under in the middle. I need to do another test to confirm that I haven't added too much packer (and come out the other side) but it is looking hopeful. The non-offset grind plot shows the T/S diameter still being bigger than the H/S diameter but only by 8 thou, so the T/s needs to move in by 4 thou. I don't know whether that will change with more packing, so the plan is to get rid of the dip and then look to the other alignment. The next packer to try is 50 thou. Assuming a linear relationship (it is trig but near zero that is very close to linear) that should either be spot on or show the dip getting bigger (that is, I've gone to far)

    Alignment.jpg

    Fortunately a method is available for increasing the height of the parts. This is the underside of the headstock. A previous owner had attached a plate to the base to jack it up slightly, so I'll basically follow this method.
    P1030604 (Medium).JPG

    Michael

    Note on colour - there is a slight difference in the colour of the unit (and the original bits I have) and the paint that I'm using. It does not look too bad physically - I think the camera makes it worse than it is. One thing I have been thinking about is how to differentiate between the OEM bits and the bits I've made (for historical reasons). The paint difference is slight enough to give that clue so that's why I'm not chasing a perfect colour match.
    Last edited by Michael G; 9th Jul 2016 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Note on colour

  9. #39
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    Adelaide
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    Hi Michael,

    For your reference the weight on my Hercus No.9 grinder is approximately 100mm long and 90mm diameter. This calculates to approximately 5kg for steel which is the same as your estimate.

    Spiro

  10. #40
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    Still playing with the alignment.
    This is the latest set of trials
    Alignment 2 (Large).jpg
    Grind 3 is on for reference; Grind 4 is with the 50 thou shim but it made the dip (that is, the hourglass waist) worse, so that was the wrong way. Grind 5 is shimming with 25 thou while Grind 6 is 32 thou.
    Also with Grind 5 I shimmed the headstock out 4 thou and Grind 6 was shimmed out 6 thou.
    I have a separate plot of dip vs shimming and I was sure that I was getting close with Grind 6, but it does not seem to have cracked it - Grinds 3, 5 and 6 are all around the same value. Mind you, I'm probably firmly in the realm of measurement error as well - the difference between the last 4 measured values for Grind 6 are all within 1 tenth - I suspect that even measuring under a desk lamp is questionable.
    At this stage I need to move the tailstock towards the wheel 6 thou (0.16mm) and that should get rid of the offset. The dip is trickier. I have a few options to consider
    • Something mid way between Grind 3 (40 thou) and Grind 6 (32 thou) to see what that does
    • Doing some repeat grinds would not hurt either - just to see if there is some constancy there
    • The variation is at the tailstock end of the bar. Both Grind 5 and Grind 6 have inconsistencies at this end. That may mean that I need to tighten the tailstock clearances up a bit. If I could get rid of the first two readings (at the centre and 20mm from the centre) my range would go down to 2 tenths. Get rid of the one 40mm from centre and the range is down to 1 tenth


    I'm open to other suggestions if anyone has any ideas here - I'll start by revisiting the clearances but then I'm back in WAG territory. If I understand our re-occurring friend Schlesinger correctly I'm allowed 4 tenths so I'm around the mark but being a smaller machine I would expect better.

    Michael

  11. #41
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    Truly superb work Michael.

    Bob.

  12. #42
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    Thanks Bob.
    I'm still trying to work out this alignment thing - on a 120mm test piece I'm down to roughly 3 tenths waisting in the middle (that is, the diameter is 3/10th less than it should be) and 1 thou difference in diameter between ends. The 1 thou can be sorted by skewing the table, so that is not an enormous problem but the 3/10ths is perplexing. 15 trial grinds and the results are jumping around a bit now. When you think about what a tenth is, a speck of grit in the wrong spot is enough to throw things out, so not surprising perhaps.
    I had hoped that I could graph the waisting against shim thickness and it would show a minima, but I have too much variation to do anything except know I'm around the mark. At least I have a temperature controlled shed to do these trials in, even if the temperature is constant at 'bloody cold'.


    Michael

  13. #43
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    G'day Michael, I'd probably suggest going back to the beginning and checking the alignment of the machine in the order outlined in Schlesinger (which you indicated you had). "Waisting" of work suggests the bed is not straight but the error has been somewhat compensated elsewhere.

    A similar topic came up not too long ago in reference to lathes, and it was obvious that some people don't seem to appreciate that the tests are in fact a complete package, and you can't just jump into the middle of them and expect a valid end result. The initial tests can be thought of as like the foundations of a building, and there's no point in building a wall on shaky foundations. As you progress through each test the machine will either fall within that tolerance or it won't. If it doesn't, that may well be acceptable and you may be happy to live with that error, but without that knowledge you may well finish up chasing your tail later in the test proceedings, and never really get the machine operating as well as it was originally capable.

  14. #44
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    Hi Michael.

    With a machine capable of such fine tollerances, could that last few tenths that allude you be attributed to the foundations its sitting on? Could the concrete floor be moving slightly?

    Simon

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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    "Waisting" of work suggests the bed is not straight but the error has been somewhat compensated elsewhere.
    It could be - at the moment I'm trying to get the tailstock adjusted to get a repeatable result from it and haven't seriously looked at the bed.

    Quote Originally Posted by simonl View Post
    With a machine capable of such fine tolerances, could that last few tenths that allude you be attributed to the foundations its sitting on? Could the concrete floor be moving slightly?
    I'd say unlikely, simply because the bed is around 12" long and the machine base is around 6" deep. Not much room for twist (although it could of course happen). It's more likely to be either (as Pete says) an issue elsewhere or running up against limits of measurement/ measurement error on my part. That 3 tenths is 7.6 micron. The tenths change between measuring on the machine and letting it rest for say 30 minutes. My frustration with it is that the results I'm getting at the moment are almost random in their occurrence. I'm at the stage where I think I'll use it as is to continue and once everything is working, possibly revist for improvement.
    This size CG is relatively rare (only about 3 makers produced them, briefly) and I suspect if Schlesinger were around to give advice he would say that they are too small for his standards to apply anyway. I'll think about this as I continue.

    Michael

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