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30th Jun 2018, 11:39 AM #1Senior Member
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No. 0 Plain Horizontal Milling Machine Operators Instruction Book
Hercus001.jpg
I uncovered this in a box of old text books. It is a spiral bound copy of the booklet titled as above. I'm unsure if this is the original as it came with a machine or if it is a copy. Some of it is a bit faint but I should be able to get readable images. If there is any demand for it I can scan it and make the pages available for download either on this Forum if possible or using my OneDrive.
It runs to 17 internal pages covering:
p1 Lifting,
p2 Physical dimensions,
p3 Cabinet Base dimensions for Plain stand and Electrical & Coolant system stand,
p4 Installation, Cleaning and Lubrication
p5 Oiling points
p6 Diagrams of Spindle & Control levers
p7 Instructions for Spindle and Drive, Machine Slides
p8 Electrical schematic diagram
pp9 - 13 Extra Attachments Instructions and Diagrams (5 pages)
p14 Dividing head reference chart
p15 Specifications and Extra Equipment
p 16 Equipment and cutters, Recommended cutter sizes for Normal Milling Operations
p 17 Bearings, Seals, Vee-Belt, Motor, Standard Equipment
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30th Jun 2018, 12:12 PM #2Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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Just so you know this manual is being sold on ebay on a DVD for $25.
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30th Jun 2018, 07:30 PM #3Senior Member
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Well if I give it away, that will do him out of some business then won't it? People have no right to sell stuff that isn't their own copyrighted intellectual material. As anyone who has tried to navigate the virus ridden online manual trafficking underworld will attest, it is a loathsome trade. My offer stands. If you want a copy of a page or the document let me know.
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30th Jun 2018, 07:37 PM #4Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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As far as I know he does have the rights, he's the owner of what remains of anything officially Hercus. If anything you will be doing him out of his rights. If he wasn't I wouldn't have posted anything.
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30th Jun 2018, 09:25 PM #5
glivo
BobL is trying to break the news gently. We understand you mean well, but Bob points the copyright issue out for a darn good reason.
The is a potential here for things to go all pear shaped.
Before this thread goes too any, read this :
https://copyright.unimelb.edu.au/inf...t/personal-use
and then this :
//metalworkforums.com/f90 The MetalworkForums terms of Use
Clauses 3.8 and 4 & 5
Grahame
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1st Jul 2018, 08:30 AM #6Senior Member
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Lost and Found
I had posted a reply stating that I understood, and retracting the offer but it now seems to have disappeared when I tried to edit it.
The reason for my attempted edit was to point out that the printed material I have and the DVD available (subject to copyright) on eBay, are not the same thing. The DVD is apparently a 12 minute video showing the operation of the machine. The DVD is clearly marked as being subject to copyright. This is not what I have. The ad contains no mention of printed material.
I have the printed operator instruction booklet that ships with the machine. It is not marked in any way with any intellectual property information or copyright claims. My understanding would be that any owner of this machine, original or not, is entitled to have a copy of this manual. It is just as much an accessory to the machine as any other physical accessory or any operator instruction manual to any other device.
Of course I could be completely off the ball here. It used to be that I was never wrong. I'm now regularly reminded that I'm rarely right. If the forum feels my offer is in breach of law and the rules, that offer is withdrawn.
If anybody thinks that I may have somehow ended up in possession of their own copy, send me a PM and we can discuss any identifying features so that you can claim it back.Last edited by glivo; 1st Jul 2018 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Additional information
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1st Jul 2018, 10:25 AM #7Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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There are two DVDs available on ebay, one is a video and the other is the so called "manual" plus other "original" Hercus documentation.
I realize you are only trying to help and there's no breach of law so far, but it would be unhelpful for us not to point out what the situation is. Although perhaps unlikely, how would you like it if we said nothing if you and the owners of the forums were to to receive a "cease and desist" letter from the legal owner's lawyers?
Anything on the web does not need to be marked as copyright to be copyright although it is helpful if this is shown on websites so that we don't end up with this situation. There does not have to be an ISBN, publisher, author, etc shown for the work or material to be copyrightable. Any drawing, plan, text, photo, video, etc may be copyrighted without notice. So the usual method is to search for the existence of such material and/or ask on the forum if the material is copyrighted, contact any vendors to ascertain if they hold the copyright. Then you can say that you have cleared it as far as you you know.
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1st Jul 2018, 10:39 AM #8Senior Member
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Thanks. BobL. I do get it.
I do appreciate the warning and hence my public retraction of the offer to provide potentially illegal copies.
As an ex-teacher and father of university students I do understand copyright. I have researched and found that instruction manuals are (or can be) subject to copyright, which I must say is an absolutely ridiculous, but nevertheless existing law.
I can only find a DVD of the video training for this machine. Nothing even resembling printed manuals.
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1st Jul 2018, 12:22 PM #9Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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Sure.
I can only find a DVD of the video training for this machine. Nothing even resembling printed manuals.
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1st Jul 2018, 06:27 PM #10Senior Member
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Purely academic now that the offer to distribute this volume is retracted but, nowhere does the eBay listing stipulate what the "attachments" are.
The way I read the listing is that the DVD is a video presentation on the use of "the machine and IT'S optional attachments". These attachments are physical machinery parts, ie; extra attachments for that machine, being the Raised Vertical Head, Slotting Attachment, Table Lever Action Attachment, Machine Vices, Angle Plates and the Dividing Head. As far as I can see the DVD does not include other materials such as printed media previously supplied with machinery. In the item description it says it is available to "Northern Territory, Western Australia, Tasmania".If you click on the link for "See full description" it isn't listed there either. Do you know that this listed DVD actually includes the same booklet I have here or any other printed media like instructions. dimensions or specification and spare part listings?
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1st Jul 2018, 07:20 PM #11Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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1st Jul 2018, 08:54 PM #12Senior Member
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Fair enough. You'd think that it's inclusion would be worth mentioning in the listing for the DVD.
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2nd Jul 2018, 01:38 AM #13Intermediate Member
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Ummm, I understand Hercus cloned the South Bend 9" lathe from the 1940s onwards. As did Boxford and Sheraton at other times. That looks like theft of US intellectual property to me, with some modifications / improvements, by Australians.
I have the suspicion, at present unconfirmed, that the Hercus Textbook of Turning was based on the South Bend publication How to Run a Lathe (which I assume was copyrighted).
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2nd Jul 2018, 05:00 AM #14Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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2nd Jul 2018, 05:29 AM #15Intermediate Member
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I just looked for and located a page with a collection of South Bend patents, it may be of some interest, or provide some ideas for gadgets.
The SBL Workshop - Projects Index
There is an anecdote online about a member of the Hercus staff making a covert visit to the South Bend plant, and being given a tour of it until his hosts realised who their foreign visitor with the unrecognised accent was, after which the reception became frosty and the visitor was escorted off site. This may be aprocryphal, it was well before my time.
On the other hand, when I was still at primary school (or just starting high school), I worked in school holidays at a factory in Ringwood producing a product where my mother was the secretary. This firm "Self-Sign" intended to expand into the US market and took on a US partner. After giving the US partner their trade (technological) secrets the US partner went his own way and set up his own independent firm in the US and Self-Sign went bankrupt.
DT
P.S. About the weaponised digital manuals online. I found a British Motor Corporation 1.5 litre diesel engine manual that someone seemed to have gone to some trouble to make the first three pages look like the real thing, but the rest of it misbehaved like some sort of delivery vehicle for a virus that tried to instal itself on the computer's DVD drive. Fortunately there was no DVD media in the drive at the time. Since that experience, which was a near miss, I have rather less enthusiasm for locating copies of out of print manuals in digital versions online. I thought until now that maybe I was being paranoid, but if so, I am not alone.
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