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  1. #31
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    May 2015
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    It looks like you've done a wonderful job Silverspring, a fantastic find that I'm sure your as happy as can be with it. When you pulled it down to clean and paint, on the drive frame did you find matching serial numbers stamped into it? Tinkerer77 and I both have one that has the matching numbers but we're not sure why they are there or if all ARF models have them or just some of the H patterns. I have another, a P pattern that I haven't pulled down to paint, I've looked where I can on it but haven't found any as yet but I am restricted to what I can see. But again, a wonderful job on your prise, thanks for the pic's.

  2. #32
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    Mar 2017
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    Melbourne
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    64
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    Thanks for your encouraging feedback. Yes, I found matching numbers on: gearbox plate, bed, tail stock, and drive H frame.

  3. #33
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    Mar 2017
    Location
    Melbourne
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    64
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    221

    Default Speeds on the F fast model

    The good book says the top speed of the fast model is 2600rpm. According to my digital tacho, I get 2320 in 'top gear'. Is this normal/correct? I suppose it doesn't matter too much; at 2320 it fairly hums along! Top on my other lathes are around 1500, which I thought was fast.....but the Hurcus turbo charges that.

    A total of 16 speeds to choose from - luxury. Those with VSD's need not reply (I've got one on another Hercus 9, and it sure beats changing belts. I'll be keeping this latest resto as original as possible tho.)

    Slowest measured speed (with back gear) is 76, which is consistent with the good book. Still fast enough for screw cutting - I usually use sub 50 on the other lathes so I have some reaction time. I'm getting a bit slow in my old age...

    Time to start making swarf. Cheers, Tony

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Adelaide
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    239

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    I was curious to find out what the top speed of your F lathe was, I think that the ToT is more of a guide worked out from the pulley diameters and then there is a few different motor pulley dimensions,the other thing to is maybe the motor is struggling a bit to drive it at the high? load when i get mine up and running I will do a speed check as well. Mal put up a post a little while ago asking people what the dimensions of the pulleys were, the headstock pulley is a different dimension to the standard on the F model which is 4"11/16 and the best part with the F is all the pulleys are balanced. You have done a great job on your lathe, It has come up very nicely.

  5. #35
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    May 2015
    Location
    Newcastle
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    62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversprings View Post
    The good book says the top speed of the fast model is 2600rpm. According to my digital tacho, I get 2320 in 'top gear'. Is this normal/correct? I suppose it doesn't matter too much; at 2320 it fairly hums along! Top on my other lathes are around 1500, which I thought was fast.....but the Hurcus turbo charges that.

    A total of 16 speeds to choose from - luxury. Those with VSD's need not reply (I've got one on another Hercus 9, and it sure beats changing belts. I'll be keeping this latest resto as original as possible tho.)

    Slowest measured speed (with back gear) is 76, which is consistent with the good book. Still fast enough for screw cutting -
    I think Steve is on the money with what he says about speeds based on measurement's of pulley's Tony, mine run around the same speeds as yours based on my digital tacho, other speeds were close to book speeds but not the same. I had been wondering about revering either the motor or drive pulley and then check the speeds again to see if it reaches 2600rpm. I'd need a change of belt to do this on the P pattern because the motor would drop below the bed and the belt would rub on the bed so I haven't tried it and my H patters is covered and buried in the back of the shed making it a mission to try. I think it would run faster, it may even run above 2600 and would give another 16 speeds, just a thought.
    Stephen

  6. #36
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    Mar 2017
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    Melbourne
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    Interesting discussion on speeds. I decided to measure the diameter of all the pulleys and knock up a spreadsheet to see if I could reconcile the measured values with those calculated from the pulley dimensions. Findings:
    1. The motor is 4 pole, so it with a 50Hz supply it would theoretically spin at 1500rpm. In practice, the measured (on my motor) no load speed was 1495rpm. The name plate says 1425 under normal duty. The difference in these speeds is due to the slip in the rotor, under the various loads, compared to the synchronous top speed of 1500prm. With all the pulleys and belts connected, but no cutting load on the spindle, my motor runs around 1470rpm. All of which explains why we would all get slightly different speed readings, because it depends on the load.
    2. Using the pulley diameter ratios, and knowing the motor speed (or range of speeds, per point 1), I can calculate the spindle speeds. I validated this by direct measurement. I can confirm that the speeds quoted in the ToT are not correct for my pulley set. In particular, the max speed is never going to get to 2600rpm.
    3. As an aside, the back gear ratio is 0.189, which correlates (more or less) with the ToT quoted speed reduction with, and without, back gear.
    4. If my calcs are correct, then swapping the motor pulley for the counter shaft pulley would result in significant increase in speed. I calculate that the top speed would be 6770rpm (that is, the belt running a combo of the big diameter pulley on the motor, and the small diameter pulley on the counter shaft). Lets not try this......
    So, this would seem to confirm that the pulley dimensions must have been changed by Hercus along the way, so the actual speeds did not agree with those quoted in the ToT, or indeed, some of the advertising material. It would be interesting to find a machine that did run at the ToT speeds, and then see what the difference is with the pulley set.
    All a bit academic, I suppose, but interesting all the same.

  7. #37
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    May 2015
    Location
    Newcastle
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    Yes, it is interesting Tony, speeds and pulley sizes, I should have mentioned hercus pulleys varied in size and they fitted what ever the customer wanted at the time, on my H pattern it came with 2 sets of pulleys, it had been in private hands all it's life and the one owner said the pulley had come from Hercus, the motor pulley was the standard but single speed drive to a 4 inch single drive on the drive pulley along with another set of 2 speed pulleys that are the same as my P pattern. When I said to reverse the drive or motor pulleys I was just talking about reversing one of the 2 speeds but leaving it on the same sharft. My maths isn't as good as yours so I have no idea of calculated speeds but I don't think it would be around the 6700 which is very fast. Having said that, I doubt a standard motor would be able to start it up. I've tried the fastest speed on mine with a none standard 6" four jaw chuck and it has trouble starting it, well it won't start it. It's all interesting stuff, I love my Hercus laths and I'm always keen to learn more about them and to see them restored. I am only a novice at best and owe much to other users/suppliers and other trades people for the knowledge I have gained.

    cheers
    stephen

  8. #38
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    Mar 2017
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    Melbourne
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    Stephen, thanks for that. I am new to the Hercus, but am quickly finding out that there are quite a few variations between the various models and years. Colour, number of teeth in the back gear, pulley sizes, motor suppliers, even the top slide dovetails on my C model are slightly different than my A model. I am sure the list goes on. I suppose this is all partly due to improvements, and partly due to the availability/cost of the materials at the time.

    Interesting your machine doesn't get away when configured in high speed (and a bit of hefty chuck on the spindle). Have you checked your starter capacitor on the motor? They don't last forever and replacements are pretty easy to find and install. I checked mine when I had the motor apart (motor full of sawdust and oily grot; really freed it up when clean, and the improved air flow must have improved cooling) and found it to be in very good condition. To my surprise (I could make some comment about it not being made in China, but better not). Photo below. Let me know if you are not sure how to test them (you will need a multimeter).
    Starting capacitor.jpg

    I've pulled together a chart to hang on the wall near the machine, so I can quickly pick a speed/pulley combination. By the sound of it, it is probably specific to my machine and may not necessarily work for anyone else! Still, I'll attach the MS Word file (if I can...bit complex on this forum ), so others can put their own speeds in the table. Maybe the little graphics I produced will be useful.
    Speeds.JPG
    Hercus 9 spindle speed chart model ARF v1.docx

    Cheers Tony

  9. #39
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    May 2015
    Location
    Newcastle
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    Thanks for the tip Tony and no, I haven't checked starter, I have noticed a few sparks from inside the motor when starting it, from the brushes I think they're called. I'm not to clever when it comes to electricity but the starters are easy to get to and it shouldn't hard to find someone who can test it and supply a replacement if needed. Would a bad capacitor cause it to struggle under load? I tend not to put to much load on the machines because they are only 9" and like I said, I'm a novice at best.

    I've had friends buy Chinese lathes and they've regreted it soon after, one later ended up with a hercus and has never looked back. I think you're right about different parts and paint, little things have changed over time but the basics stayed the same.

    And thanks for the diagram, I'll print that, fill in the speeds and post it on the back board so I can see it at a glance. Did you say you had the paint mixing numbers (formulas) That I can get Bunnings to mix for me, I have no immediate plans to strip the P pattern, I'm having to much fun using it but will buy the paint ready for when I do and that's probably when the cone pulley belt fails, it is showing it's age and like all things, it's only a matter of time.

    Cheers
    Stephen

  10. #40
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    Aug 2015
    Location
    Adelaide
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    Just as a matter of interest , what do your pulleys measure in diameter? There seems to be some variation in the motor pulleys throughout the years.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #41
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    Mar 2017
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    Motor: 3.54" and 2.18" (3 9/16 x 2 5/32 perhaps??) Different to yours.
    Counter shaft: 4" and 5.375" (4" x 5 3/8 I assume) Seems very close to your pulley.
    All a bit surprising that they are different, but close.
    Have you measured the counter shaft and spindle pulleys?

  12. #42
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    Stephen, the spark will be from the centrifugal switch. Not unusual, but may also be a sign that your capacitor is not 100%. Key symptoms of a crook capacitor: slow to get going (like it is struggling, and taking time to get up to speed, but once up to speed runs normally), or the motor just hums loudly and doesn't get going at all. Either symptom results in a much increased current draw, which you can sometimes see in the dimming of the work light, if you have one fitted of the same point as the lathe. That extra current can cause more sparking from the centrifugal switch than there should be. Apart from these signs, you can check by un-soldering one connection to the capacitor and putting an ohm meter across it; you should see the meter kick up quickly to near zero ohms and then drop back to a high resistance (hundreds of thousand ohms) fairly quickly; you then reverse the meter connection and the meter should kick over past zero quite angrily, and then drop back to a high resistance quick quickly. These are signs that the capacitor is being charged up by the battery in the ohm meter, and then quickly settling back to a high resistance. Bad caps: typically the meter does not move much, and hangs around a low resistance value, not much difference when you reverse the meter; or it is possible that it has gone open circuit, in which case the meter will just read infinity and not do anything. It goes without saying that for safety, you must disconnect the power supply to the lathe - unplug it, don't just switch it off at the machine or power point. Use a high resistance range on the multimeter.

    I hope that explanation is OK. Sometimes easier to show than to put in words! If in doubt, replace it - mine (for the Chinese lathe, but much the same) was about $30. I posted a photo of the capacitor in my Hercus (GMF Cadet) motor, which shows the value (capacitance and voltage rating) you need to get, but you should check your capacitor and get the same as was in it (as your motor may be different to mine, and they are motor specific).

    Hate to admit it, but my main stay lathe in the workshop is a Chinese one. Had it for 10+ years and after a bit of fine tuning, and adding a DRO it has done a lot of work (commercially, as well as for myself). The Hercus lathes are relatively new to my workshop, and I am yet to give them a good workout. I am sure they will perform very well. In fairness, the Chinese lathe is a big one, and was not cheap. I have, however, replaced the capacitor twice over the 10 years. They take a beating with lots of starts/stops, and just over time, as the dry out.

    Love the look and feel of the Hercus. A beautiful piece of engineering. I also like that they are part of Australian manufacturing history. They are also an important piece of trade training history; training in a trade which was popular and important to our economy once.

    Sorry for the long winded post...Tony

  13. #43
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    Mar 2017
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    Stephen, sorry didn't answer your question on paint. There has been so much written on this forum about Hercus paint colour, I'm reluctant to throw my two cents worth in! One thing we can be certain of, Hercus used a variety of colours (and that includes different shades of the Hercus green) over the years. Some people reckon the Colorbond colour Wilderness is very close, I didn't find that on my machine. I also chose a gloss finish, which like my confession to owning/using a Chinese lathe, may draw gasps of horror from some of the forum members. I like the gloss because it is easy to keep clean, but is not true to the original flat or satin finish. To each their own, I suppose. Anyway, if all this hasn't put you off, let me know if you want the paint base and tint formula I used. (if you haven't already looked at it, check out tinkerer77 Steve's post about his 2 restos, he has some good commentary/advice on the paint colour and selection he used).
    Cheers, Tony

  14. #44
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    Mar 2017
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    Default Motor and switch wiring diagram

    Another post...this time the electrical wiring diagram I promised. Again, I am not sure how relevant it is to other machines, given all the variations Hercus built. Hopefully it helps someone. Diagram below. The attached file contains photos of the motor and switch wiring on my machine.
    Hercus 9 AR wiring diagram.jpg
    Hercus electrical arrangement V1.pdf

  15. #45
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    May 2015
    Location
    Newcastle
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    Thanks Tony, yes, there has been much talk about Hercus colours, as I understand it they used what ever colour they had, I have one that is nowhere close to green but I believe it is original although green seems to be the preferred colour, I did have a eucalyptus green and some others that I can't think of at the moment but different shades but will have a look at Wilderness unless Steve has a closer formula, that's one thing I must leave to others as I am colour blind

    The wiring diagram you've posted, is that for a reversible switch? I have a good motor that I got off a hercus but can't do anything with it. Now that sparked a thought, it has good starter on it, same motor, I'll try that next time I have some spare time.

    Steve, the pulleys you posted, are they off your H pattern? they are very close to what I have for the P, the H is a little different but could be put down to a different supplier, I think Mal said your machine and mine were made very close to together so I'd expect our two would be very close in what was used. Not for any other reason but for our personal interest, these old lathes are a bit like old cars. I haven't asked Tony what year his was made so it may tell another story, it seems to be the little things that tell the stories. Anyway, bed time, I've had a big day in and out of Sydney,


    The mate who I said had the Chinese lathe, he bought a smaller one and after a couple of years things started to go wrong with it and parts started to dry up, he unloaded it quick to someone who thought could fix it and he picked up a hurcus but that's another story.


    cheers
    stephen

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