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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldneweng View Post
    I have heard of safes having a loose material that just keeps falling down into the gap as it is cut.

    Maybe small pieces of gravel.

    Dean

    Yeah maybe . A friend was saying ball bearings , so they spin as a cut is being done .
    some scrap concrete cutting blades with the diamond edge would be good , a lot of collecting to get it though.
    then cutting them all off .
    The used carbide blades from a shelix head would be a good source, they could be broken into smaller bits with a hit from a hammer and mixed into a cement and poured in. it would then need a diamond blade to get through it . Something the thief would not expect .

    Rob

  2. #32
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    The used carbide blades from a shelix head would be a good source, they could be broken into smaller bits with a hit from a hammer and mixed into a cement and poured in. it would then need a diamond blade to get through it . Something the thief would not expect .
    Another good source could be TC teeth from stump grinders. I have a bundle of these somewhere.

  3. #33
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    Having worked in the security industry and recenty returned I will share some things I know.

    #1 and above all, crime and theft in most parts of Australia is at a relativly low incidence ..... unless you have a reason to be a target or have made yorself a target....... the whole security industry thrives on fear, uncertainty and doubt.

    #2 most crims are dumb and ill prepared ..... not saying all, but by far most.

    #3 I totally reject the idea that the crim is going to get the goods no matter how hard you try. ..... given the above #1 & #2 ..... any effort you make will reduce your chances of being deprived of your goods.

    The simpler methods work for the simpler crooks and the lower risks, as the stakes increase you need to get more comitted and devious (OH YES DEVIOUS) in your methods untill you get to the level of methods used by places like banks and prisons.

    ALL effective security methods rely on making it harder or taking longer or making more noise...... there is nothing impregnable ..... but you can easily make things harder ........ you very much have the upper hand, when things are harder than the crim expects them to be or you are better prepared and more comitted to keeping your stuff than the crim is in depriving you of it ..... DEVIOUS remember DEVIOUS.
    No crim can circumvent a measure that they do not know about and are not prepared for.

    THE simplest and most effective security device is a good lock and chain with something substantial to attach it to ...... yes they will beat this with a grinder ..... but that takes time and makes noise .... it will stop the ill prepared crim ... remember that is most.
    BUT you need a lock and chain and attachment point that is worthy of the risk.

    Here is a very good link on buying locks ..... Bill is in the US, but the principles remain universal ... BTW austrlain Lockwood locks stack up reasonably well value for money.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJZ_kKjXcE

    Further ..... remember DO NOT depend on a single method of security ..... all the high secuity environments have multiple layers of security so the crim has to beat one layer after another ...... many unsucessfull criminal attempts have been abandoned when a second or third especially unsuspected layer of security is encountered.

    remember devious.

    Yes GPS tracking has become very very much cheaper in recent years ...... as for being out of range ..... hell ..... first they have to know its there. You can stand up a GPS tracker for probably a fortnight on a standard 7AH alarm battery a couple of days on a battery small enough to hide in the chassis rails. ...... very few earth moving machines do not have GPS tracking these days.

    YES CCTV has become very very much more affordable and effective in the last couple of years ..... $2000 will buy you a DVR and 4 cameras that has better performance and facilities than was being used in banks 5 and 10 years ago ..... and yes viewable on your PC, Tablet, or phone.

    Yes there are always alarms and they don't have to be sofisticated.

    Remember any effort you make is better than none.

    OH in the matter of slowing down grinders ...... many bank safes and ATMs have multi layer walls, of concrete and steel sandweged. ... with devious stuff in the crete.

    So if you are making a security device out of tube, it is very reasonable to stuff it with rocks and crete before you weld it up.

    Many high security locks have anti-drilling bars either side of the keyway .... bits of hardened steel that are free to spin

    remember devious ..... think about stuffing some cut up car tyres up that tube, with some rocks and old drills ..... that will bive em something to think about when they try to grind it.

    be a devious bastard and think like a crim.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  4. #34
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    Sth Gippsland Vic
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    I know , store bought anti theft devices are there for looks and to stop honest people taking your trailer.
    I had two devices, this wheel clamp and the trailer hitch cover with the padlock . Its also behind a locked gate which is good.

    I was surprised at what a piece of rubbish this wheel clamp was though. I had it fitted , wrong side of the trailer which didn't help . The jutting out piece has no effect that way . but then I think reversing may have the same effect.

    I went to drive forward and do an adjustment to trailer position and forgot to take it off. I did notice a little resistance . A little bit like breaking a cheese stick . I got out to find this clamp had just fallen apart . forget the angle grinder with these things . Just drive off , or reverse first .

    Its no wonder when you see how that leg pivoted and the thin metal .

    Rob
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #35
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    Good store baught locks and anti-theft devices most certainly are not for looks and they DO slow down determined theves and DO keep out ill prepared and dumb crims. ( the majority)

    BUT

    There is a lot of crap out there.

    Right from the simple padlock up ...... there are good and pretty poor security devices out there.

    Have a look at Bosnianbill's youtube channel and you will see exactly how poor many locks there are ..... but there are some very good ones out there

    At the bottom end of the market, you could go to bunnings and buy a Master lock #3 for about $28 ........ they ARE a joke ..... they have just about every design fault and vunerability a padlock can have ..... OR you could pay under $10 and buy the Australian lockwood brand equavalent ..... the two side by side look very similar ..... but the lockwood is a way better item in every way.

    Any mug with basic lockpicking skills can have a Master lock #3 open in under 5 seconds ..... smack em with a hammer the right way & they just pop open ... there are many ways to beat a #3 .....

    the lockwood on the other hand will take a reasonably skilled picker about a minute / minute and a half to open. .... very few crims are good pickers. ..... it just takes too much comitment and patience to get that good.

    OR you could go to a friendly locksmith and for about $35- $40 buy one of the respected high security brands.

    I use padlocks as an example and an indicator because they are the most basic security device.

    A lot of the security market is focused on marketing and reasurance, not effective security.

    There is some pretty expensive reasurance out there, and some very reasonably priced effective security.

    And most of it if you go with your eyes open and a little understanding of engineering the difference is not hard to spot.

    They key is to look at the job like you are a crim ...... think about the security method and think how you would beat it.

    If whatever it is looks flimsy or easy to get by ..... it is.

    If you are interested in wheel clamps ...... they are not hard to make ....... there will be plenty of immages on the net ..... compare crappy things sold in the supermarkets and auto stores with the pictures you will find of those used in parking enforcement in places like the UK ...... the serious ones you are not going to pick up in one hand, they wont be made out of light bent
    strap and tube.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundman View Post
    THE simplest and most effective security device is a good lock and chain with something substantial to attach it to ...... yes they will beat this with a grinder
    As someone who has not worked in the security industry, but has been the victim of a few break-ins to sheds and theft of fuel, my take on crims is quite different.

    When it comes to overcoming security measures, they have a mindset that often remarkably efficiently seeks out the weakest point of failure and exploits it, making a joke of all the other attempts to complicate things for them.

    For example, confronted with a lock and chain, a thief isn't going to whip out a grinder, just a pair of bolt cutters. You can use the same tool to chew through steel bar, quietly and efficiently. Hence any measure that exposes enough material to get bolt cutters around is not going to pose that much of a challenge to a half-motivated thief.

  7. #37
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    The bolt cutter and the hacksaw are well known tools, I mention the angle grinder becase it is the most recent game changer.

    Methods to prevent entry to bolt cutters and hacksaws are very well konwn and easily implimented.

    Even morerately hardened locks and chains will combat hacksaws pretty effectivly.

    While cheap or even midrange locks and chains will present very little resistance to a good pair of bolt cutters and strong arms.

    You will, however, have a very hard time beating a top shelf boron steel padlock and a good boron steel chain with bolt cutters ..... even IF there is clear open access.

    OH then there is the attachment point.

    AND this is the issue with many security devices ........ IF you are half serious you WILL specifically deny access to the popular and well known entry tools. ... you will pay attention to protecting your attachment points ...... then you change you focus the the next vunerability.

    I have been around induatrial sheds and construction sites and I know that fuel theft is a very big issue in the earthmoving industry.

    I look at the security measures used and I am unsurprised..... even a passing glance will mostly reveal the weaknesses and vunerabilities.

    there we have a large earthmoving machine, left on an unattended secluded site ..... it has a GPS tracker, there may be an abloy key required to start it, there may be metal plates fitted over all the glass and doors ...... but on the fuel tank there is a pissy padlock thru a couple of lightweight tabs on the fuel cap. ...... of course several hundred litres of diesel is an attractive and easy target.

    As far as many industrial sheds ...... oh hell forget about the door ...... just rip off a couple of sheets off the wall.

    Most people simply do not want to hear about real effective security, they either want reassurance or the minimum the insurance company demands.

    The "Oh why bother, they will get in any way", attitude is all too common.

    Real and effective security is possible, easier and less expensive than most people believe.

    BUT it does require thaught, some committment, some effort and some expenditure.

    Effective security has to be taylored to the risk level.

    NOW here is the big failing in peoples minds ...... the majority of people do not want to know about effective security, because it will show them how vunerable they actually are ..... above all they want to feel safe, protected and reasured.

    Turth is How you feel about your security matters little to those wishing to deprive you of your goods.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  8. #38
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    Location
    Brisbane
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    429

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    Enough chinwagging ..... how about some specific methods to beat common methods of attack.

    mostly we use padlocks on trailers and the like, because they are flexible and versatile.

    The first above all is to buy a quality lock ... and its not all about price ..... if you buy wisely and well, you will buy a quality lock for less than some of the market leading retail locks ...... watch the Bosnian bill video I linked above.

    You want a ball bearing lock ... that is one with two round groves in the shank. .... not square or triangular notches.
    This is the first indicator of a better quality lock.

    look for a lock with more pins in the tumbler ..... ya won't get much quality in a 4 pin lock, the better quality locks have more pins.

    You want a pin tumbler lock (or something better like abloy)..... most wafer locks are no chalenge at all, even to beginner pickers.

    If a manufacturer is using a ball bearing mechanism and 5 or more pins in the tumbler, they will probably make more effort else where, most of the high security locks will have 6 or more pins.

    Buy as big a lock as can be convienietly used with what you are trying to do, bigger locks are generally stronger.

    Brass locks have a good reputation and there are arguments for brass in weather exposed applications, but steel or stanless steel bodied locks will be stronger.

    We all recognise the standard padlock form, but there are a variety of improved forms designed to deny access to the shackle.

    Disk locks.
    where the lock looks like a disk and the shackle retracts into the body.

    shrouded locks
    where the body is extended up to cover the shackle

    Shutter locks
    where the shackle is actually a pin and the body surrounds the opening.

    Now remember there are cheap nasty forms of all these locks that are not worth the money you pay.

    Good brands are
    Lockwood
    In their upper range very nice, but they do have some cheap retail locks that are not particularly good. Some of their locks can come fitted with cores from other brands like abus, and abloy

    Abus
    Is a well respected european brand and they make some nice stuff.

    Schlage
    Not so well known here, but a quality manufacturer.

    Abloy
    The originator of the pretty much unpickable round and oval keys, but they do have conventional locks.

    Master Lock
    Make some of the worst rubbish in the lower range, but they do have some respectable stuff in their upper range ......
    But I would rather give one of the better makers my money.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

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