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  1. #1
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    Default Soft ride trailer

    G'day All,

    Needing a work trailer for trade tools. Im looking at canopy with square sides. Doors on sides and one on end.

    Size will be 1800 wide with wheels inside the trailer. Length of box likely will be 2400.

    First question is on suspension options. I have a large flat bed that tides real hard. As i will have a range of tools, shelves and the like i want it to ride more like luxury car tha a sports car or truck.

    Thinking tandem and gvm of 2000 kg.

    Thanks

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  2. #2
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    Hi Dave,
    Thanks for looking after my press for me.
    When you say the trailer rides "real hard" is that empty or with a load? What a lot of people don't realise, is that suspensions are designed to work with a constant load, + or - a couple of hundred kg, 3- 4 passengers in a luxury car, great ride. A tray top ute can carry 1000kg, but when empty rides like a bucket in the surf, but put a 1000kg load on it and rides great.
    Best bet would be to weigh all your tools, everything you will carry in the trailer, tally it up and allow the weight of the trailer, to give you an exact GVM.
    Because if you are under what you estimated, you'll end up with a rough ride, and if you are over, you put undue stresses on the suspension plus a fine for being overweight.
    You can get trailer suspensions made to order, if you find the weight is 1750 kg, order a suspension for 1750 kg.
    Hope this helps.
    Kryn

  3. #3
    Yonnee's Avatar
    Yonnee is offline Trailer Bloke & Mild Mannered Moderator
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    Default

    In addition to Kryn's response, Standard run-of-the-mill trailer suspension is short leaf spring, and therefore, has a much narrower range of optimum weight capacity than a car's suspension. Even fully loaded, try jumping on the back of a 6x4 and you'll only find you'd get an inch or so travel at best. If you tried the same to an old Holden or Ford car with rear leaf springs (at least 50% longer than the trailer ones), you'd get up to 6 inches travel or more.
    Your other alternative is coil springs, but you lose a heap of load carrying space taken up by the cavity required to fit a coil spring beside the tub in the wheel arch, or a massive jump in ride height so that the spring sits under the tub. You could shorten the spring, but the shorter the coil spring, the stiffer it is. You also need to run a shock absorber with a coil spring so it doesn't "wallow" with the spring oscillation.
    There are heaps of options out there now, including a bunch of different coil spring options, with the ultimate being Air Bag suspension, but the setup costs can be quite significant over a standard trailer spring suspension.

    So the question is, how much variance do you think you'll have with weight difference between partially loaded and fully loaded? How soft do you really need it? And how deep are your pockets?
    Too many projects, so little time, even less money!
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  4. #4
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    Default

    Been waiting to see if i got a reply and looks like i did but notififications were not working. Looks like i had to set up a new profile to sign in and oress suscribe for my own thread

    That said time to read responses above.

    Thanks

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yonnee View Post
    .... the ultimate being Air Bag suspension, but the setup costs can be quite significant over a standard trailer spring suspension.

    So the question is, how much variance do you think you'll have with weight difference between partially loaded and fully loaded? How soft do you really need it? And how deep are your pockets?
    Like everyone I am limited and with recent job loss and a double mortgage things aint easy.

    I want racks with tools so dont want them bouncing all over the place. Yes i will have things built to contain the tools but also may have sensitive equiment like laser levels etc

    As for weight, that is a hard one. Sometimes i will just have tools other times materials as well. Mist of the time I would hope not to be carrying more than 1000kg but times will require and extra 500kg or so im sure.

    Someone said something about 'knee' suspension. I dont know what that is but apparently used on caravans.

    Air suspension interests me. I figure this is a life investment so have yo be prepared to find and part with some $$$


    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  6. #6
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    Default

    As has been sort of mentioned ...... trailer suspension as generally sold are just crude ....... and generally over stiff.

    A lot of this revolves arround the total lack of dealing with the straight chassis and the total lack of putting the springs in the right attitude.

    As has been mentioned most traiers springs are short ..... like half the length that you will find under a similar car or utility for the same load ...and because the front of the springs ar generally attached directly below a straight beam chassis only half the travel is available.

    OH .... and the use of shockabsorbers and the provision of bumps stops is pretty much the exception rather than the rule.

    well designed utility springs are also progressive rate, in that as the suspension squats more of the leaves come into action, so unladen the suspension is softer than fully laden.

    My recommendation is ...... know how much you want to carry, because the lighter the trailer is the easier it is to get a suspenion to suit...... and make sure not to over build the trailer.

    You may then not need a tandem suspension, thus you will be able to lift a suspension pretty much complete from another vehicle and take advantage of the design work from a major car company.

    My little old box trailer I built when I was 19, still rides very well compared to any trailer on trailer parts springs ...... the springs came out of some austin or other.

    Hilux springs are plentifull as are the choices of spring pack .... mostly they are good for about 1.5 tonnes.

    70 series landcruiser springs likewise are easy to come by with again a good choice of spring packs and are good for around 2 tonnes.

    Both of the above can be had with shockabsorbers matched to the springs.

    look at those springs beside trailer shop springs of the same rating and they will be way better made and arround twice as long.

    to get the best out of them they need to be instaled at the correct attitude ..... look under the donour vehicle or one similar and it will show you how they need to be mounted.

    generally you will need to pack the front spring attacment point quite some way down from the chassis ....... there are a couple of reasons the front of the spring needs to sit close to the same level as the axle.

    another thing that will ease the ride is big wheels ..... big wheels and big tyres require less pressure to carry the same load ....... not only will they ride ob=ver bumps and not fall as far into holes they can be softer.

    All this may result in more heaight than you need...... but put the axle over the springs or if you must use a drop axle.

    another thing that is not very often seen is to run the springs up the side of the chassis rather than under it ..... it requires some engineering, but.... have a look under an F100 ...... the springs run up the side of the chassis ,and the shackles are in tension rather than compression

    Of course the other thing is ...... if you have the trailer built and it is still too stiff when fully loaded ......as long as it is not bottoming out you can take a well chosen leaf or two out.

    Its not hard to do better than typical trailers ..... the bar has been set pretty low.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Thank you soundman. Some good food for thought

    I like the idea of a tandem as it balances easier. Can I apply your recommendations to a tandem. As I will be frequently hitching and unhitching thr trailer and with the loafs being changed often too I do not know that the trailer will always be balanced as required.

    With what you say you put a normal trailer axel under car springs?

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  8. #8
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    Hi Dave,
    There is no reason that trailer axles can't be put over or under car springs., just a matter of using the correct U bolts and plates. Soundman has some good points, I've been involved in the manufacture of trailers for about 40 years, and I've never been told anything of the way he explained. I think the way trailer springs are set up with the deep curve, is because it's easier to do with less manufacturing of deep brackets etc. Thanks soundman, I've learnt something else today,. With a tandem setup the wheels will be further apart, I wonder if that would put more strain on the components.
    Kryn

  9. #9
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    Good point o the springs. Yes the wheels would be further apart.

    Not pretending to know anything here. Just looked at pictures and read replies here and on other threads.

    1) If using car springs for a tandem I presume a rocker set up would still be desirable?

    2) Could you offset one lot of springs to pass another and switch the sides the springs attach on the rockers to bring the axles closer again?

    3) Another option I have long pondered is a dog trailer something like this but a single axel on the rear and designed to hitch to a 50mm ball



    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  10. #10
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    Hi Dave,
    I have seen a setup where the springs crossed over, just can't remember where.
    The dog trailer is a good idea, what are you like at backing one?????? That's why they're called dog trailer, dog of a thing to back.
    I converted a 36' caravan about 30 years ago to a dog trailer, used Holden 1 tonner wheels all round, tandems rear and front, towed by a Dodge Dual Cab truck. The reason for the conversion, was that the drawbar kept cracking, even though it had a torsion towbar, similar to ALKO rubber suspension.
    Kryn

  11. #11
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    Default

    I reckon i could back one ok. No issues with normal trailer any size. I like the dog ad it is always on all fours and weight distribution is less of an issue. Also can flip the draw bar up. Just never seen one for a car that was all. I guess if you went single axel front and rear you would be needing a beefy bearing for pivot point

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  12. #12
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    Hi Dave, from memory about a 2" pin is used on semi trailers and 3" on road trains, no actual bearings, just a steel plate top and bottom with the pin enclosed in cast jaws. To go that way you'd need to build a trailer from the ground up with a goose neck arrangement similar to a horse float, as it would be a fair amount of work to modify an existing trailer but it could be done. Otherwise it would need a step ladder to get into.
    Kryn

  13. #13
    Yonnee's Avatar
    Yonnee is offline Trailer Bloke & Mild Mannered Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTTC01 View Post
    Like everyone I am limited and with recent job loss and a double mortgage things aint easy.

    I want racks with tools so dont want them bouncing all over the place. Yes i will have things built to contain the tools but also may have sensitive equiment like laser levels etc

    As for weight, that is a hard one. Sometimes i will just have tools other times materials as well. Mist of the time I would hope not to be carrying more than 1000kg but times will require and extra 500kg or so im sure.

    Someone said something about 'knee' suspension. I dont know what that is but apparently used on caravans.

    Air suspension interests me. I figure this is a life investment so have yo be prepared to find and part with some $$$


    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art
    Firstly, sorry to hear about the job.
    The Knee Suspension you've heard about, used to be called the Symons Suspension, and is a factory fitment to Coromal Caravans. It is manufactured by Melbourne Trailer & Caravan Supplies in Chelsea Heights, Victoria and can be manufactured/purchased through them to retro-fit any Caravan or Trailer, as well as any new build. It consists of a wishbone shaped control arm that pivots from near the centre of the trailer and is suspended at the outer chassis rail by a floating leaf spring.
    The advantages are;
    It's a fully independent suspension that can be setup as a single, tandem, or tri-axle configuration.
    The spring doesn't hold the axle captive, so if you break a spring, the system will just sag rather than leaving you completely stranded.

    Its disadvantages are;
    It's still a leaf spring design, although the leaves are flatter than a conventional trailer spring, therefore a little more compliant, it still has a narrow window of optimum weight range.
    Unless loaded to near it capacity, it can produce abnormal tyre wear on the outside half of the tread, but seeing as most trailers are not on the road 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, it may not be an issue.

    There's two options with Airbag suspension.
    There are the ones that are "helpers", which are a bag you put with the existing suspension system to allow you to carry extra load over what the standard suspension is rated for. These are inflated to a pre-determined pressure by an external source, the same as adjusting your cars tyre pressure.
    The other system is a stand alone airbag system that replaces a conventional spring, however, this system can be expensive because of the requirement for onboard production of air to keep the system at its proper ride height.
    Generally, these will also require a control arm type of axle arrangement, as a conventional beam axle utilises the leaf spring to hold it captive.

    Another option that hasn't come up yet is the Al-Ko Rubber suspension. It's a fairly simple system that's a little more forgiving with light loads than a leaf spring, and is an easy replacement for an existing setup.
    Its major drawback is it's fabricated fully assembled at the factory, so if something goes wrong, it requires being removed from the trailer and sent to Al-Ko for repair.
    Too many projects, so little time, even less money!
    Are you a registered member? Why not? click here to register. It's free and only takes 37 seconds! Doing work around the home? Wander over to our sister site, Renovate Forum, for all your renovation queries.

  14. #14
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    Thanks for the extra bits of detail. Because Dave was recently laid off, I didn't mention these, reason being extra costing. But handy to bring up from time to time for anyone wanting better suspension ideas.
    Would it be possible to put them up as a sticky, for any future reference??
    Kryn

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yonnee View Post
    ...The Knee Suspension you've heard about, used to be called the Symons Suspension, and is a factory fitment to Coromal Caravans. It is manufactured by Melbourne Trailer & Caravan Supplies in Chelsea Heights, Victoria and can be manufactured/purchased through them to retro-fit any Caravan or Trailer, as well as any new build. It consists of a wishbone shaped control arm that pivots from near the centre of the trailer and is suspended at the outer chassis rail by a floating leaf spring...
    Do you have a link Yonnee? I've done a google on it and not much luck. I do now know all about that poor old jocky though

    No mention here... http://www.melbournetrailers.com.au/Product%20MAIN.html

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