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  1. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    formerly from Sydney (north of The Harbour), NSW, Oz
    Age
    68
    Posts
    306

    Default

    I've been following this build with interest and think I may have seen the "ideal" solution to your mulch spreader.

    Like you I'm involved in snow activities and am currently in Austria on my way to the biathlon Youth / Junior World Champs. The village I'm staying in has a big cross country ski race this weekend and I've been watching them moving snow around during the week.

    One of the trailers being used has square sides, a full width walking floor with 4 coarse augers (mounted vertically) at the rear. The augers counter rotate so that snow (and mulch) is shredded and spat out as a fine stream. (sorry but I don't have a picture)
    The walking floor was driven by the towing tractor's PTO, while the augers were hydraulic.

    When I saw this trailer, I thought this is what a mulch trailer should look like. But you can't direct the mulch to the sides, or throw it very far, and then I realised that the mulch trailer could be combined with a snow blower.




    The little ones have a very coarse auger that directs snow to a central disc with 3 "ridges" that drive the snow up the swelling discharge shute. Given you can buy a complete petrol driven snow blower for around CAD $1000, the auger components can't be that expensive.

    Google and you tube will show how effective these units are at throwing light weight stuff around.
    regards from Canmore

    ian

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    Time for the next chapter in this saga!

    So the auger idea didn't really work that well. It wasn't disastrous - we spread around 30m3 of mulch far quicker and easier than the alternative methods, but it's clear that a conveyor is the way to go.

    I've been on the lookout for a bale elevator, which seems like a good candidate for cannibalising for parts. After watching Gumtree and Ebay for quite a while, I finally decided that an old Mobilco machine rusting in a paddock near Wagga was going to be my best bet.

    A 3 hour drive, an hour spent dismantling it as much as possible, then strapping it to the trailer enough to not incur the wrath of the Gundagai cops should I get pulled over, then an hour listening to the the seller's theories about how the economy is about to come crashing down, and how he's selling everything he owns and buying gold bullion as that'll be the only thing of value once all the banks go under (not to say he may not have had a point, I just really wanted to get back on the road...).

    So I returned home with this:

    Bale Elevator.jpg

    And this is the agricultural chain off it:
    Ag Chain.jpg

    We couldn't find a removable link or any kind of joiner, so in the end it was a job for the battery grinder:
    Cut Link.jpg

    In essence I bought the whole thing just for the chains and the drive cogs:
    Cogs.jpg

    But before I get carried away with fabricating a conveyor, I might put this thing back together, put a temporary plywood floor and sides on it, re-install the chains and do a few tests conveying mulch, just to get an idea of feasibility and power requirements.

    Also tossing up trying to de-rust the chains...

  3. #93
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    5,942

    Default

    I'm not 100% certain, but I think from memory that the links are rotated to 90 degrees and slip through the slot. Also you might want to put some paddles on the links to help move the mulch, as chains on their own won't help. If the chain idea works try derusting in a molasses bath.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Ballarat
    Age
    65
    Posts
    3,103

    Default

    I'm with Kryn on the agi chain links. Each one is a removable link
    Looking forward to the mods Rusty.

    Phil

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    You are both right. With the chain off, it becomes obvious that each link will slide sideways when at the right angle. At the time we were dismantling it, de-tensioning the chain looked like a formidable task given how rusted some of the bolts were.

    If need be, repairing the cut links will be pretty simple, but I expect I'll not need the full length as I'll be testing on a slightly shorter section of the elevator (it comprised a 5m main section and a 2m extension).

    In order to move anything, I plan to attach bars between the two chains where the links that have tabs on them. I may end up having to add more tabs as they're spaced a fair way apart. Hopefully some testing will give me some idea of the amount of load each bar adds.

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default Chain Bars

    So I've been busy pulling stuff apart, cleaning and de-rusting - tried a bit of electrolysis and some phosphoric acid - both seemed to work, the latter was more appropriate for the chain, but I think I'll need a higher concentration given the volume inside.

    The tricky bit now is working out how the bars between the two chains will work. Looking at commercial chain-feed spreaders, the bars are only about 100-150mm apart, so I'll need to add quite a few. What I'm not sure about is how to attach the bars to the chain.

    This is the chain that'll go on each side:
    Chain Links.jpg

    The simplest and quickest would be like this, welded each end:
    Welded Bar.jpg

    However, the bars will be about 600mm long, and while the chains will be kept in fixed alignment by the drive cogs, I'm wondering if there's enough play in the chain links to allow for a bit of movement, or will it all be too stiff leading to the welds breaking from fatigue?

    The alternative is to weld on tags and attach the bars with a bolt, allowing a bit more movement. Something along the lines of this:
    Bar on Tag.jpg

    Which is a lot more work...

    Any thoughts?

  7. #97
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    5,942

    Default

    Hi Rusty,
    I think that the bar on a tag, would be the best option, as it allows for minor misalignment. It would be a lot easier to handle setting up wise, rather than trying to handle 2 chains at once, each one can be set up, then bolted together. I'd be inclined to use flat bar on its edge, rather than angle, it'll allow for flex a bit more also. Will you be arc or mig welding them on? You'll have to watch the welding as it may soften the loop, allowing the link to open up and fail.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    Yeah, I think welding the bars directly is simply going to fail - they'd probably be OK on the flat, but when they go around the drive cogs there'd be a heap of stress and no room for movement to relieve it.

    Looking at the commercial chain conveyors, the wide ones use 3 chains, so I might do the same with a 3rd one down the middle, as the wide conveyor should help prevent caving over. I'm thinking maybe 800mm wide. It's a bit of an unknown as to how much torque will be required to move the conveyor, and I'm not sure how the shape or frequency of the bars will affect that. Obviously the taller the bar, the more material it's going to be pushing.

    The bars be spanning a bit under 400mm on each side of the centre chain, and I'm thinking 30mm high and probably 2.5mm thick, making me wonder if flat bar might flex too much. It would be lighter than angle though...

    Oh, and I'll be welding on the tags - probably 15mm high - with MIG. I don't think heat will be a problem.

  9. #99
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
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    5,942

    Default

    Hi Rusty,
    With your chain being 800 wide, would the delivery exceed out put off the rear, I think you were using/looking at augers for side delivery?
    A chain running down the centre will help in minimising flex, I'd be inclined to use 30 X 3 flat bar instead of 2.5, just thought it would be stronger. The tags, I feel would be a tad short, as it would only just reach the centre of the bar, I'd use something that was at least 25mm high, with your hole about 18mm up, and the hole on the cross bar in the centre, makes it easier to assemble instead of turning the bars over to get them the right way up. Might be an idea to weld a couple of links and then stretch them to see the results of any damage.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    The wide width is a bit off-putting, as it adds to the effort needed to move the chain system, but caving over is a huge problem with mulch, so there's a real benefit to designing it to minimise the possibility. That said, I probably wouldn't have gone narrower than 600mm anyway. In the first instance the mulch will just feed sideways via gravity and a chute, later it will get some kind of side feed - I'm not sure an auger will have the throw required, which means a 2nd conveyor might be the go.

    I might need to do a drawing explaining the bars, as they're meant to scrape along the floor, and the drive chain is about 15mm high, so adding 15mm high tags comes to the height of the 30mm high bar (which will have a 35mm wide by 15mm high chunk cut out at each chain - the chain is 35mm wide).

  11. #101
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

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    Finally had a moment to get back to this. Chain has been soaking in phosphoric acid, as that's what I had. I've sketched up what I plan to make in terms of a chain conveyor for the floor. As mentioned, total width will be 800. As drawn, bars are at 164mm spacing - it's a little hard to work out if more or fewer bars will easier to move. At this spacing there'll be 40 bars, and with 3 tags for each bar, that's 120 tags to weld on...

    Mulch Trailer 9 Wide.jpgMulch Trailer 9 Detail.jpg

  12. #102
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Lower Lakes SA
    Age
    58
    Posts
    2,607

    Default

    Sorry if this has been mentioned but... do you think the steep taper of the hopper is adding to the 'caving' problem by compacting the material as it goes down? How about a vertical wall section at the bottom and a flatter hopper above?

  13. #103
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Sorry if this has been mentioned but... do you think the steep taper of the hopper is adding to the 'caving' problem by compacting the material as it goes down? How about a vertical wall section at the bottom and a flatter hopper above?
    The new design with the wider chain conveyor will make the walls much less steeper, although they will still come in a bit - I'm hoping this should reduce the caving thing. I could potentially make the conveyor even wider, but I'm a bit concerned as to how much effort it'll take to move.

  14. #104
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
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    Time for an update - I've been working on this when I've had a moment. I did a lot of de-rusting - started with Phosphoric acid, then moved to electrolysis as it's cheaper, and phosphoric creates a white deposit if you leave it too long.

    One of many tasks was to attach tags to the drive chain that will then have the cross bars fastened to them. First up was drilling a bunch of tags - they're made from 13x5mm bar:
    Drilling Tags.JPG

    The I made a jig to ensure each one was in the same position on the chain link:
    Tag Jig.JPG

    Then used vice-grips to hold the tag in place before welding:
    Tag Ready to Weld.JPG


    With a pile of tagged chains, it was then time to bite the bullet and get on to the main frame, so I set up the V8 welding table and glued up bunch of RHS - 65x35x3 for the sides and end, 40x40x1.6 intermediates:
    Conveyor Frame.JPG

    Next bit is a little more tricky - mounting the sprockets at each end...
    Bearings and sprocket.JPG

  15. #105
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    5,942

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    Hi Rusty Arc,
    Have you come up with a way to mount the sprockets yet??? To mount the ones you show, weld a piece of flat each side with the holes to suit the bearings, possibly underneath. I presume you planning on putting some sheet metal on the top of the frame, for the cross bars to drag on? Put a small lip folded down about 45 degrees, so the chain won't catch on it. When setting up the sprockets, make the bottom of the sprockets level with the top of the sheet. Do similar to the other end which will need to be adjustable. These can be set up the same as the fixed end, but slotted to allow adjustment. 12mm/1/2"" all thread rod should be fine for this, because of the strain that's involved, I'd plate both sides of the adjustment rod, or a piece of RHS around the rod, so that the pull will be even on both sides.
    HTH
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

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