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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    East Warburton, Vic
    Posts
    357

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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyArc View Post

    Two 9/16" female ends and 1m of 3/8" hose? $100.
    That's pretty much about what I pay here, that size and length is common on implements for skidsteer loaders and is usually around the $100 mark.
    Cheers

    DJ

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    Construction has been interrupted by on-snow activities, but I'm now back on board.

    Next thing to sort out was putting the auger together, and sorting out drive shafts and bearings. I ordered some 25mm pillow-block self-aligning bearings. I thought I had some 25mm round bar, but when I went to try and insert it, I discovered it was, in fact 25.4mm. No problem - my neighbour is a retired fitter and turner, has a couple of lathes and a milling machine - he'll sort this out no problem.

    Problem was, he's on holiday.

    What to do? I only need to take off 0.2mm - how hard can that be? So I build me a lathe:

    Lathe.jpg

    The process was not as fast or as easy as imagined, but evetually the the stupid shaft fitted through the damn bearing.


    The motor coupling wanted a 32mm dia shaft, so I needed to bush up my now precisely-turned 25.000 shaft. First some top shelf bushing stock:
    Bushing Stock.jpg

    Then with some precision work with the bandsaw, a vice and a hammer I had this beauty:
    Bush.jpg

    Put it all together to get this:
    Bearing and Coupling.jpg

    I carefully measured the runout by checking if the coupling hit the bench when spun. It didn't.

    I welded all my Ebay augers onto the gal pipe shaft - it all looked quite convincing when done, not that I have any pics to prove it.

    Then came the hydraulics. This was my first attempt:
    Hydraulics 1.jpg

    The I backed up the tractor and discovered the lines weren't long enough to plug in, so version 2, hydraulics on a stick:
    Hydraulics 2.jpg

    You can see the mounting of the oil-powered motor in the background.

    With that mess all together, time for testing.

    1 bucket of mulch, neatly ejected:
    Mulch Out.jpg

    Then 5 buckets or mulch in the hopper:
    Hopper with Mulch.jpg

    Which isn't that much, but that's where the problems started. With the relief valve set to cut out at 40 bar, the auger wouldn't move. Wound up to 80 bar and it'd move a bit, then the coupling slipped. Tightening up the coupling and tweaking the auger back and forth got it spinning at about 120 bar - once moving the pressure dropped back to about 20-30 bar.

    My initial thought is that the problem is the weight of the mulch pushing the auger against the metal floor, so one solution would be to add intermediate supports to the auger to hold it up so it doesn't touch the metal

    Once the auger got going, it emptied the 5-bucket load pretty efficiently, although more room is needed at the back to allow the mulch to exit.

    I then loaded 10 buckets in. Getting the auger spinning again required a bit of to and fro, but eventually it started doing its thing. The next problem was a cave-like void forming over the auger, which jerking the trailer about didn't fix. In the end it required a lot of poking with a stick to get it all to collapse onto the auger. I'll look at sorting out the stalled auger issue first before getting on to this one....

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Ballarat
    Age
    65
    Posts
    3,103

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    Hi Rusty
    I'm assuming you are using 205 housings as you could've got imperial bearings to suit.
    UC 205-16 they are, or used to be
    Not that it helps now lol

    Phil

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer View Post
    I'm assuming you are using 205 housings as you could've got imperial bearings to suit.
    I think you're right about that - it didn't even occur to me, though I imagine inserting a self-aligning bearing into a housing requires some kind of magic?

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

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    Having, I think, identified a problem with having the auger edges resting against the steel floor, my solution is to support the auger at a couple of points along its length. That requires fitting bearings in a few places - the auger is 3m long, so adding an intermediate bearing at the 1 and 2 metre point seems to make sense. Given, when spinning, the radial forces aren't significant, and there's no requirement for runout, I decided fitting a plastic "guide" might do the job. So I sourced the components:
    Bearing parts.jpg

    Put together a prototype:
    Bearing fitted.jpg

    Cut a chunk of flight out where the bearing is going:
    Flight Cut.jpg

    And fit it in place:
    Bearing in Place.jpg

    The bolts are only there for illustration - I'll be using M10 threaded rod going through the bottom and sides of the floor to hold it in place, the threaded rod allowing adjustment to ensure the bearings are axial.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

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    Spent the day loading up the hopper and trying to feed it out. Adding intermediate supports didn't appear to improve things- my conclusion is that once completely immersed in mulch, the 3m length of 200 dia auger requires too much effort to spin - the hydraulics were maxing out at 150bar, shearing the welds on the drive shaft a few times. Adding some effort with a pipe wrench eventually got it going, but it's clear the accumulated mass of mulch that needs to be pushed is simply too much.

    Next move is to get some 150 dia augers - I'm kind of hoping they have the same size central tube so I can remove all of the 200 dia augers except for maybe the last one and just slide these on. Previously I welded the auger sections to the gal pipe I was using to carry them, meaning I now have to grind out the welds to remove them. I think I'll now drill and pin the augers, which will make swapping them out easier.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lebrina
    Posts
    1,910

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    Please take these comments as constructive as I do not want to offend anyone, but can see disaster looming.
    It would be in your best interest to call a halt to proceedings temporarily and take stock.
    What you are trying to achieve is not at all easy as mulch varies so much in composition and consistency when compared to grain for example. I've had a bit to do with grain augers and based upon that, would make the observation that you will most likely never meet with success using your current design where the full length of the auger is exposed to the mulch - too much drag and weight exerted by the product, you really need a design where there are shutters in the floor that can be opened and closed to restrict flow and also allow the auger to be started prior to them being opened. You will also need separate motors for the left and right side discharge augers, with independent flow controls for each. To start with, you need to know what hydraulic flow and pressure your tractor can supply and thus the hydraulic horsepower available, so as to be able to choose the correct sized hydraulic motors if in fact your tractor can supply sufficient horsepower to do the job, which I suspect it may not. The formula for hydraulic horsepower is, HP = (PSI X GPM) / 1714. 1 Bar = 14.5 PSI and 1 litre per min = .264 GPM (US).
    I was approached by a local blueberry farm to construct a similar type of machine and declined the job due to the problematic nature of mulch, (your mulch will possibly be even worse to handle due to its stringy nature) and the fact that their proposed operating parameters would have required at least 250 hydraulic horsepower to achieve when they only had operating space for a 60 engine horsepower tractor.
    Hydraulics are marvelous things, but you must start with some hard and accurate figures if you want them to perform correctly. I also believe that your augers, bearings and drives are way under constructed for their intended duty. This is a pretty serious machine you are contemplating.
    Have you considered a side discharge bucket for your tractor? All things considered, a side discharge bucket may be a simpler, cheaper, less troublesome and even more effective option.
    Start at the beginning, get your ducks in a row, then see where it leads you. Best of luck.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Adelaide Hills, SA
    Posts
    141

    Default Keep persisting

    How is progress?
    I just read this thread from the beginning. I have had a bit to do with augers for feed and also belt spreaders and manure spreaders and farm machines in general. I think you can make this work if you keep trying. When you try to start the auger with the hydraulics, have you checked if their is something, like a piece of mulch jamming between the auger and the hole where it exits the trailer? If it isn't to hard have a look around the hole and see if anything is tight. You may need to also check the auger against the side of the trailer where the rotation would jam things against it.
    Please keep us updated on the progress.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    429

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    UM Yeh ... its easy to under estimate the effects of weight and friction.

    It also occurs to me that putting intermediate bearings in the auger shaft will present a problem. .... in that, the bearings and what mounts them presents a blockage to flow ...... and in fibreous material stuff will get hung up on them.

    Also the notion that there will be no side thrust on the auger shaft is incorrect ..... in fact under certain conditions there may be subsstantial side thrust.

    It occurs to me that you may need quite some mumbo to push that auger and a substantial shaft and bearings to carry it over 3 meters.

    One thaught is you may be able to help the process by getting gravity working for you bu inclining the tub on the trailer or lifting the front of the trailer with the three point linkage.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    429

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    Another thaught is that there may be friction at the exit point ....... as the flow of material catches on the edge of the appiture ...... increasing the appiture size or tapering the exit may help.

    chers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
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    1,322

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    Please take these comments as constructive as I do not want to offend anyone, but can see disaster looming.
    Just to be clear, I'm not playing for sheep stations with this. If it doesn't work, it is by no means a disaster, it just means I've learned something. Following through the auger option only costs me what I paid for the augers, which was not a lot, and which I'll probably find another application for if they don't work out. The hydraulics are borrowed, so no cost there. The floor of the hopper is removable so if the auger option isn't a goer, I can try a floor conveyor.

    I'm not building this to sell, nobody is counting on it working - it'd be great to get it operating in some fashion before the end of the month, but if not, it's really no big thing.

  12. #72
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
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    1,322

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burner View Post
    When you try to start the auger with the hydraulics, have you checked if their is something, like a piece of mulch jamming between the auger and the hole where it exits the trailer?
    My "test mulch" isn't ideal - it's a tree I chipped pretty finely about 2 years ago which also has quite a few sticks in it, and has broken down to the point where it's almost soil, leading to it compacting (I think). On the other hand, if I can get it to work with this stuff, then I can be confident it'll handle what's likely to be thrown in it, which in the first instance is fine screened mulch.

    If it isn't to hard have a look around the hole and see if anything is tight. You may need to also check the auger against the side of the trailer where the rotation would jam things against it.
    There's always going to be scope for something to get caught between the edge of the auger flight and the side, however, when I only loaded a single bucket in, the 200mm auger fed it out no problem. It's only when I added more, covering the whole 3m length that the auger became almost impossible to turn - you could turn it maybe 1/3 of a rotation either way, but it seemed like the mulch would then compress and compact, stopping any further rotation.

    Please keep us updated on the progress.
    Will do. Spent the weekend on an excavator digging a 220m trench for an irrigation submain that I'm going to have to finish the plumbing on, but then I'll be back on my new 150mm auger shaft.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundman View Post
    It also occurs to me that putting intermediate bearings in the auger shaft will present a problem. .... in that, the bearings and what mounts them presents a blockage to flow ...... and in fibreous material stuff will get hung up on them.
    Yep, I had the same thought, but I'm not sure what the alternative is, as:

    in fact under certain conditions there may be subsstantial side thrust.
    You are correct - the auger seems inclined to try and climb upwards, perhaps because the material above it is less compressed than that below it, meaning I either need a super-stiff shaft, or intermediate support.

    Where I have my intermediate bearings, I do need a bit of a gap so the edge of the flight doesn't jam something against the bearing support, however as you point out, in that gap the flow of mulch stops, potentially creating a high pressure point that stalls the flow. The next auger along will create a low pressure point, but that might get filled by mulch dropping in from above.

    So the answer is, I don't know, all I can do is experiment based on best guesses.

    It occurs to me that you may need quite some mumbo to push that auger and a substantial shaft and bearings to carry it over 3 meters.
    As I mentioned, the 150 dia auger will have 40% less surface area - maybe that will make a significant difference?

    One thaught is you may be able to help the process by getting gravity working for you bu inclining the tub on the trailer or lifting the front of the trailer with the three point linkage.
    I did try that, but it seems static mulch that's been compressed under its own weight really does *not* want to flow naturally

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
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    1,322

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundman View Post
    Another thaught is that there may be friction at the exit point ....... as the flow of material catches on the edge of the appiture ...... increasing the appiture size or tapering the exit may help.
    For my last test with the 200dia auger I attacked the exit with the plasma cutter and made it a lot bigger, but it didn't appear to help.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Bungama SA
    Age
    52
    Posts
    960

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    Sounds like you need to restrict the mulch feeding into the auger, maybe cut it down to the 1st few feet and put a sloping floor to feed too it.
    I realise this will cut down the holding capacity but keep the angle low by possibly adding some vibration to the sloping floor, a small elec or hydraulic motor with an offset weight would do it.
    If you could make the floor "oil canned" so it flexes or spring mount it and set up a crank arm and pinion to physically shake the hell out of it
    ....................................................................

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