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  1. #31
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    [QUOTE=gazza2009au;1763916]when u get a "blue slip" (registration inspection) in NSW the mechanic does a engineer and design check they charge a small extra fee i think i was charged about $26.50 extra last time i upgraded springs on a unregistered trailer



    From VSB01 linked at the top of this forum subsection.

    Whilst manufacturers and importers are exempt from submitting detailed evidence based on the ADRs to the Australian Government, manufacturers and Importers must retain records relating to the manufacture, testing or inspection of road trailers for the life of the model and for a period of 10 years after the last road trailer is supplied to the market.

    These records must contain sufficient information to establish compliance with this Vehicle Standards Bulletin (e.g. written confirmation from the State or Territory that the LPG installation meets the requirements for road registration) and in addition, they must also identify any components that may have been fitted to a particular road trailer for the purposes tracing components in the event of a safety related defect recall notice.




    While this is a summary of the actual regulations and written for volume manufacturers.....the obligation remains on the single trailer home builder to document the components and engineering on what they build......they can not subcontract the liability to someone else.


    Must contain sufficient information to establish compliance.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  2. #32
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    thanks Rusty, i looked into hiring a truck with a 4.2m tray just to haul the i beams they want $1100 deposit

    soundman, the excel isnt for towing the boat although i will try, if it doesnt tow it than so be it i'll upgrade car at a later date the boat is still being built so no rush and btw it has a tow limit of 700kg

    i think hiring the car trailer might be ideal to move the i beams around, the uhaul car trailer only weighs around 300-350kg my excel should tow that fine

  3. #33
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    I like the fact that you are promoting accountability and soundness of design Soundman.
    However, as with any engineered fabrication, the engineer does accept liability if their certified design fails. Provided of course that you have not modified their design, altered materials and have carried out construction to the relevant standards as specified.
    Take a bridge for example. In the event of a failure, provided that materials used, construction methods employed, (weld procedures, material specifications and fabrication methods) and installation standards all were to the engineered design, ultimate responsibility transfers to the certifying engineer.
    If you take a trailer to be registered, the inspection station will check compliance with the relevant standards and issue you with paperwork to enable registration. Provided you do not modify the trailer after this point, then you would have a fair argument in any legal proceeding that your trailer was deemed fit for use on a public road. The same applies to modified vehicles, once the engineer signs off, it's their problem.
    The onus is on the user to check that any vehicle used on a public road is fit for purpose at the time of use. That which complied yesterday, often does not today, (defective brakes, lights or physical damage).
    I have heard it mentioned from time to time that we shall see the demise of home built trailers. I have mixed feeling about this. On one hand, as a Boilermaker, I often am called upon to rectify home built trailers (some of which are downright scary). On the other hand, I have seen some absolutely top notch work come out of backyard and farm sheds. I am totally unimpressed by some of the mass produced and imported trailers that we see. They are often barely tacked together and the steel sections are like tissue paper.
    I guess at this stage, a rigorous pre-registration inspection is our best bet.
    Provided Gazza keeps his paperwork from the trailer's inspection and a couple of happy snaps as a record of the design I would be fairly confident he would be covered.
    Getting the trailer registered may take a little more effort if the inspector has had little experience with Ally and is unsure, so perhaps some material spec sheets may be of benefit.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    I like the fact that you are promoting accountability and soundness of design Soundman.
    However, as with any engineered fabrication, the engineer does accept liability if their certified design fails. Provided of course that you have not modified their design, altered materials and have carried out construction to the relevant standards as specified.
    Take a bridge for example. In the event of a failure, provided that materials used, construction methods employed, (weld procedures, material specifications and fabrication methods) and installation standards all were to the engineered design, ultimate responsibility transfers to the certifying engineer.
    If you take a trailer to be registered, the inspection station will check compliance with the relevant standards and issue you with paperwork to enable registration. Provided you do not modify the trailer after this point, then you would have a fair argument in any legal proceeding that your trailer was deemed fit for use on a public road. The same applies to modified vehicles, once the engineer signs off, it's their problem.
    The onus is on the user to check that any vehicle used on a public road is fit for purpose at the time of use. That which complied yesterday, often does not today, (defective brakes, lights or physical damage).
    I have heard it mentioned from time to time that we shall see the demise of home built trailers. I have mixed feeling about this. On one hand, as a Boilermaker, I often am called upon to rectify home built trailers (some of which are downright scary). On the other hand, I have seen some absolutely top notch work come out of backyard and farm sheds. I am totally unimpressed by some of the mass produced and imported trailers that we see. They are often barely tacked together and the steel sections are like tissue paper.
    I guess at this stage, a rigorous pre-registration inspection is our best bet.
    Provided Gazza keeps his paperwork from the trailer's inspection and a couple of happy snaps as a record of the design I would be fairly confident he would be covered.
    Getting the trailer registered may take a little more effort if the inspector has had little experience with Ally and is unsure, so perhaps some material spec sheets may be of benefit.
    right on Karl, when i go for the rego inspection i need to shop all material receipts so hopefully they wright the details of the material purchased on the receipts so the mechanic can see the grades of aluminium being used and know its of high quality

    to be honest my blue slip mechanic the one i will be using is pretty dodgy he just passed my car for a pink slip rego check with oil leaks faulty windscreen wipers, he didnt even pop the bonnet so i think passing the trailer should be a piece of cake

  5. #35
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    Gasa and karl....this is not a bridge and neither the user nor the inspecting mechanic are the manufacturer and neither are responsible for the manufacture and record keeping required.

    That whole line that what complies today may not comply tomorrow...never cut any ice....it certainly does not cut any ice in the current regulatory environment....everything is focused on who is responsible, liable and at fault.

    Belive me the regulators and the insurers ( dont forget the insurers) are red hot on this now and they are far from stupid.....they can and will draw a distinction between the fault being due to original manufacture, subsiquent modification and ongoing care & maintenance.

    When you build a trailer you sign your name to it and your respionsibility for that trailer remains for the life of the trailer.
    In QLD at least you fill in a self assessment for light trailers form, where you have to declare a number of critical things concering the trailer....this remains on record..for ever.

    If there is an accident, you may have to stand up in court and give account for your choice of components, engineering choices and manufacturing methods.

    NOW
    I can testify to two particular casses...both lessons to me.

    At one time I maintained a sound system for an auctioneer who sold wrecks and damaged vehicles on behalf of a major insurance company....his equipment was located in the insurance company impound.
    I got fairly friendly with the retired mechanic who used to manage the impound and heard lots of background on various wrecks.
    One in particular, just hung arround for years.
    This was a horse float, that was subject to a disputed insurance claim.
    There was some question over the hitch and how it was attached...because hitch failure was identified as a contributing factor.
    The manufacturer came out smelling like a rose and scott free as they should have, because they could produce records showing the type, brand and model of the hitch, how it was attached and critically the length of the drawbar.
    Their records showed that the trailer had been without question modified.
    Now this trailer sat arround in this impound, kept as evidence for over 5 years as the case went thru the courts.
    The insurance company did not pay a cent to the owner and recoveerd costs.

    Now..remember the owner would have been out of pocket to the tune of the trailer, the tow vehicle, things pertaining to horses it carried, any damage to road infrastructure, any other vehicles involved, costs of recovery, storage of the wreck and the massive court costs..how do ya recon his is doing now.


    A second and more disturbing case.
    The case of Billy the Boily, I worked arround a major institutional venue for a couple of years.
    There where a pair of blokes near retirement that where top shelf boiler makers....very good at their jobs, carefull and top tradesman.

    There was a situation where a horse got thru a gate and onto the road, things got damaged people got hurt and so did the horse...a pretty expensive claim

    Well all this went to court....Billy the Boily was never going to bear any cost, because he worked on wages and the employer was well insured and also had good lawyers on retainer.
    But Billy had to go to court and testify in the matter.
    It all swung on the catch on this gate.....now Billy was in the process of going over every gate on the place and replacing the latches on every one...hundreds of them..well maybe 50 to 100.
    He had to stand up and explain, all about these latches, what was wrong with the old, one why the new one was better, how old the old ones where, who made em, whay that had not all been replaced and on and on.
    Grilled and cross examined for hours about this simple pissy gate latch.
    We saw Billy after he came back to the shop, still dressed in his suit..the poor fellow was shaking and could hardly hold his soothing cup of tea straight enough to drink it.
    The sent Billy off an a couple of weeks stress leave.

    All this over a pissy little gate latch.

    When the $!#t hits the fan and something goes wrong.....if you think you can bluff your way thru and say its not your fault......you are kidding yourself.

    The rules specifically state you have to keep recods.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  6. #36
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    coming up blank now been told i should use 6061 alloy i beams but all i can find available is its replacement 6082 and im not sure if it'll bend without cracking or something else

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundman View Post
    Gasa and karl....this is not a bridge and neither the user nor the inspecting mechanic are the manufacturer and neither are responsible for the manufacture and record keeping required.

    That whole line that what complies today may not comply tomorrow...never cut any ice....it certainly does not cut any ice in the current regulatory environment....everything is focused on who is responsible, liable and at fault.

    Belive me the regulators and the insurers ( dont forget the insurers) are red hot on this now and they are far from stupid.....they can and will draw a distinction between the fault being due to original manufacture, subsiquent modification and ongoing care & maintenance.

    When you build a trailer you sign your name to it and your respionsibility for that trailer remains for the life of the trailer.
    In QLD at least you fill in a self assessment for light trailers form, where you have to declare a number of critical things concering the trailer....this remains on record..for ever.

    If there is an accident, you may have to stand up in court and give account for your choice of components, engineering choices and manufacturing methods.

    NOW
    I can testify to two particular casses...both lessons to me.

    At one time I maintained a sound system for an auctioneer who sold wrecks and damaged vehicles on behalf of a major insurance company....his equipment was located in the insurance company impound.
    I got fairly friendly with the retired mechanic who used to manage the impound and heard lots of background on various wrecks.
    One in particular, just hung arround for years.
    This was a horse float, that was subject to a disputed insurance claim.
    There was some question over the hitch and how it was attached...because hitch failure was identified as a contributing factor.
    The manufacturer came out smelling like a rose and scott free as they should have, because they could produce records showing the type, brand and model of the hitch, how it was attached and critically the length of the drawbar.
    Their records showed that the trailer had been without question modified.
    Now this trailer sat arround in this impound, kept as evidence for over 5 years as the case went thru the courts.
    The insurance company did not pay a cent to the owner and recoveerd costs.

    Now..remember the owner would have been out of pocket to the tune of the trailer, the tow vehicle, things pertaining to horses it carried, any damage to road infrastructure, any other vehicles involved, costs of recovery, storage of the wreck and the massive court costs..how do ya recon his is doing now.


    A second and more disturbing case.
    The case of Billy the Boily, I worked arround a major institutional venue for a couple of years.
    There where a pair of blokes near retirement that where top shelf boiler makers....very good at their jobs, carefull and top tradesman.

    There was a situation where a horse got thru a gate and onto the road, things got damaged people got hurt and so did the horse...a pretty expensive claim

    Well all this went to court....Billy the Boily was never going to bear any cost, because he worked on wages and the employer was well insured and also had good lawyers on retainer.
    But Billy had to go to court and testify in the matter.
    It all swung on the catch on this gate.....now Billy was in the process of going over every gate on the place and replacing the latches on every one...hundreds of them..well maybe 50 to 100.
    He had to stand up and explain, all about these latches, what was wrong with the old, one why the new one was better, how old the old ones where, who made em, whay that had not all been replaced and on and on.
    Grilled and cross examined for hours about this simple pissy gate latch.
    We saw Billy after he came back to the shop, still dressed in his suit..the poor fellow was shaking and could hardly hold his soothing cup of tea straight enough to drink it.
    The sent Billy off an a couple of weeks stress leave.

    All this over a pissy little gate latch.

    When the $!#t hits the fan and something goes wrong.....if you think you can bluff your way thru and say its not your fault......you are kidding yourself.

    The rules specifically state you have to keep recods.

    cheers
    Nobody ever suggested bluff at any point.
    The point about what complies today, not complying tomorrow is very relevant. It is not unheard of for a wheel to lose a nut - non compliant. A broken spring leaf - non compliant. A safety chain with damaged links - non compliant. A drawbar kinked by jacknifing or bent by overloading - non compliant. Inoperative lights - non compliant, flat battery on the breakaway brakes - non compliant or a personal favourite, mild steel, non rated shackles on the safety chains - non compliant. That is why most large companies have a pre-start document that is to be filled out before use of equipment. This is a legal document, admissable in court.
    Upon inspection of any motor vehicle or trailer, it is certified as roadworthy at that point in time. Subsequent modifications at your peril.
    Yes, the rules state records must be kept, however there is scope within the rules as to what form those records take.
    While the law still allows home built trailers, this is as good as you will get as far as accountability.
    I have had numerous dealings with the transport department and insurance companies over a period of time, ranging from modified vehicles through light trailers up to trucks and heavy transport equipment including recovery and smash repair of heavy vehicles as well as some exposure to the accident investigation side of the equation.
    I hate horse floats with a passion. The majority that I have seen have a major design flaw. Take a double horse float. Now load it with one horse. The majority of floats require you to load the horse either on the right or the left of the float which imposes an uneven loading condition. There should be, but rarely is, an ability to alter the partitions to enable centralised loading of the trailer. Put half a tonne of dirt on one side of your trailer and see what it tows like. That's a horse, even worse if it can roam side to side at will.
    Gazza, your statement regarding your "dodgy mechanic" does concern me. It is in your best interests that your trailer is inspected thoroughly to protect both you and everyone else. Compliance with the rules is your protection and a large part of your defence if need be.
    This is a major flaw in the current system of private inspection stations as opposed to the original transport department inspections.
    Many timber companies once made their own log jinkers, that has now largely ended due to compliance and certification costs. I can see the day where light trailers will go the same way.
    Interestingly enough, most privately built trailers I have seen are over engineered, it is just that often the welding skills let them down. Commercially mass produced trailers are often at the opposite end of the spectrum, barely engineered and full of mild steel fasteners to keep costs down.
    Ultimately, the time for thought is long before the accident and appearance in court. If you end up in court that means something has already gone very wrong. Build a safe trailer compliant to the regulations that tows true, brakes properly and is structurally sound, keep your inspection paperwork, talk to your insurance company (even to the extent of lodging a copy of said paperwork with company), keep a copy of material spec sheets with your inspection paperwork and use high tensile fasteners (these will have a marking on the head, so there's your proof) along with commercially available suspension and hubs. Your coupling will be marked as approved, your chain links will be stamped as rated. Fit appropriately load rated tyres.
    If you buy components off ebay, make sure they are Australian Standards certified and marked accordingly.

  8. #38
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    will do thanks karl

  9. #39
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    Karl mate...."What is compliant now may not be compliant later" is a commonly raied cop put.....it holds absolutely now water anywhere.

    What matters is was it complinat at the time it was built, was it compliant at the time it was certified, was it compliant at the time it was inspected.....was it compliant when it left your hands.....what happend after that is completly irrelivent to what exsited at the time it was claimed or required to be certfied as compliant.

    The law and the courts very much make a distinction between what was compliant at the time and what may have happend later......if the design or workmanship was incompetent, the regulators and insurers are very capable of making the distinction.

    As far as horse floats.....my example has not a thing to do with horse float design and everything to do with documentation and modification.
    The insurer and the courts made a distinction between what was compliant when the trailer was built and what was not compliant at some time later.

    The bottom line is..you ( regardless of who you are or how many trailers you build) are responisble for the design, workmanship and parts selection of any trailer you make...regardless of who you are, and the law states you are responsible for keeping recrds......when the $#@t hits the fan and the case goes to court.....you better be able prove what you did and produce evidence of what you used.

    When things come to court your dismissive and over simplistic arguments will not cut any ice with the opposing barister or the judge.

    Remember...you cant in these peoples pockets and tell em its raining......remember these guys argue for a living and people try it on with them every day...and lose.



    OH BTW...when we are talking about light trailers.....a person inspecting that trailer is not responsible for the design, workmanship and parts used in the construction.....they are responsible for certifying the the trailer had the appearance of being roadworthy at the time they inspected it....the manufacturer..that is you..remains entirely and exclusivly responsible for its design and construction....and for the life of that trailer.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  10. #40
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    dont worry guys i cant go a head with this trailer, Roll Co the company i asked to do the bends got back to me today by email saying they cannot bend T6 aluminium they suggested i go to a aluminium specialist and have it heated, bent than heat treated probably big $$$

  11. #41
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    was just doing some plans and thought about going with steel RHS as a bolt together trailer works out the cheapest but a lot of screwing around than i thought about using RHS steel for the main A frame and aluminium cross members, just got off the phone to a galvanizer and the lady said it could warp when being galvanized so another dead end

    so im back at it and determined to build a trailer, how hard will it be to cut than bend the aluminium i beam? i will just have it welded, the top and bottom will be cut the middle I of the beam will only be bent to shape i will ask for the top and bottom cuts to be welded with a plate welded over the top and bottom of the cuts sound structural enough?

  12. #42
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    Can't you modify the design? Have a traditional A-frame drawbar with rectangular chassis? Or a single I-beam spine with frame off it (might be subject to too much twist)? Or change materials to an alloy they can bend?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Can't you modify the design? Have a traditional A-frame drawbar with rectangular chassis? Or a single I-beam spine with frame off it (might be subject to too much twist)? Or change materials to an alloy they can bend?
    Hey Legion, the main idea of building my own trailer was to build it from aluminium but it seems the only avaliable i beam in NSW is heat and age treated to T6 which cant be bent atlease with a machine so im hopping i can cut and bend it my self but would like to hear from others if bending T6 6082 aluminium flat 5mm sheet can be done

  14. #44
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    Gazz mate as I posted early on, there are very good reasons why aluminium trailers are not common.

    Steel is very straight forward to work in, aluminium on the other hand you realy need to know your business AND have the appropriate materials available.

    Doing heavy structrual welding in aluminium is a far from trivial operation..there would be very few arround that have either the equupment and the expertiese to do this reliably.

    It is very likley that the beams and sections used by the companies that do manufacture aluminium boat trailers are custom extrusions and there is probably nothing like them availabe on the open market.

    I have seen one aluminium boat trailer that was made of aluminium "C" channels....there is nothing like that extrusion available on the market.

    If you want to build something different and light weight.....serioulsy.....think about steel..think aboit web trusses or something.

    The corrosion problems of steel are pretty easily dealt with....and the advantages of aluminium are very easily overcome by the various difficulties, expense and othere drawbacks.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza2009au View Post
    was just doing some plans and thought about going with steel RHS as a bolt together trailer works out the cheapest but a lot of screwing around than i thought about using RHS steel for the main A frame and aluminium cross members, just got off the phone to a galvanizer and the lady said it could warp when being galvanized so another dead end

    so im back at it and determined to build a trailer, how hard will it be to cut than bend the aluminium i beam? i will just have it welded, the top and bottom will be cut the middle I of the beam will only be bent to shape i will ask for the top and bottom cuts to be welded with a plate welded over the top and bottom of the cuts sound structural enough?
    No way!
    Remember very early in the piece I mentioned heat treatment of Aluminium as where it derived much of it's strength from. The amount of welding and the location of the welding will ruin the strength of the section and it will be soft as butter. You could use a fabricated beam design, but that is way too complex for what you are trying to achieve and far too costly into the bargain. I believe that I also mentioned in this post, (if not, in another), that design in Aluminium rarely places critical reliance solely upon welds.
    Sometimes, if there are too many obstacles in the way, then take that as a sign not to proceed on your chosen course.

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