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  1. #46
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    Aug 2009
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    These are the pictures to the post above
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  2. #47
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    To post in #46 this is the other side of the welds u can see a heap of penetration, this is not the factory chart setting of 4 and 7.5 but my own testing of 4 and 9 (voltage and wire speed) i think i am going the right way
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  3. #48
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    Dec 2013
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    Mt Waverley Vic 3149
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    81
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    Gazza, I don't think you are being "flamed" - rather that we are concerned that you appear to be headed down a path that may have a bad outcome.

    You say that you cannot go to TAFE - OK, but there are many other options available. I googled "Learn to weld - Sydney" and there are numerous options available. Something like this might be suitable https://www.work-shop.com.au/event/welding-beginners/

    Another suggestion could be to post an ad seeking one-on-one training of a weekend or evening and offering a reasonable payment - cash or kind. Is there a forum member in Sydney willing to help you? Do any of the welding equipment / suppliers in your area offer DIY courses or can they recommend someone who can.

    Hifab Welding offer this:

    Course Outcomes: To provide candidates with the essential skills, knowledge and confidence required to understand and perform welding to meet their own specific requirements.


    Course Duration: Each session is approximately 3.5 hours depending on the requirements.

    To book please contact-

    Sydney 0297379911 or Perth 0421546700

    E-mail [email protected]

    Class size: Class size is kept to ensure a quality outcome. From one on one to groups of 6 depending on requirements.

    Courses run either:


    • Friday afternoon
    • Saturday morning

    • Evenings with prior arrangements

      Good luck,
      Bob

  4. #49
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    Aug 2009
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    It maybe easy for your average person to do stuff like this mate but i suffer from schizophrenia and paranoia so often don't take being judged well in person hence why i cannot go to tafe or these courses as i have tried already

    i am not tig welding these welds for clarification i am mig welding them hence why the beginning of the welds are cold and standing up, its not steel welding

  5. #50
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    Sep 2010
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    Lebrina
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    Gazza, you are not being flamed for having a go. I know I have spent many hours in the past writing posts to help you and researching machines that you have owned to try and help you sort them. Other members have spent as much, if not more time helping you.
    As Oldgreybeard posted earlier, we see you spending substantial amounts of money on various machines that you hope will miraculously improve your welding and often the newer machine is a backwards step. I appreciate your personal circumstances, possibly more than you know. By all means, have a go, but you must also realise your personal skill limitations at this point and either steer clear of projects that can cause disaster if they fail. Projects such as fuel tanks for example. As much as we may want you to succeed, we cannot wish a weld to be sound.
    None of us want to offend you or penalise you for your personal circumstances. Perhaps, given your sensitivity to being judged, it may be better to try a Mens Shed type environment where there is no test or assessment as such.

  6. #51
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    Aug 2009
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    Sydney, NSW, Australia
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    Thing is Mick people are criticizing my welds as if i am meant to produce professional welds i only have cheap welders so i thought if i invested into something worthy my while it may produce a better weld instead i seen this cheap welder and purchased it it may have been a bad move or it may not have i don't know because i am not a professional, i try to take on board as much advice as possible and i do test the welder as advised its just i often go backwards and reduce my settings rather than ramp them up

    for the tig welds in this thread i first started off tig welding 1.6mm and kept flowing holes so the way i learnt was to back off the settings and it has always stuck probably a bad habit because it now has passed onto the mig welder, after this i tig welded some 3mm 32mm round alloy tubing and i actually ramped up the amps to i think 120amps and i ran a beautiful weld than i tried to smash it to bits with a hammer and it was structually sound the tubing ripped instead of the weld

    i can understand when u guys are saying my welds are cold those first mig welds the other day looked ok but i do agree with other members it looked glued rather than embedded into the flat bar as a nice weld its all a learning curve for me and now i upped the wire feed ihave noticed the weld is actually cratering the top piece which is probably want i want slightly as it shows the weld is actually melting into the flat bar

    i personally don't see to big of a problem welding a fuel tank what is worse that can happen it leaks? it cannot explode because its a vented tank, that bait tank i tigged i can stand on top of it and i am almost 100kg and nothing happens to it

    if there were a decent machine i could buy can u please name a few?

  7. #52
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ballina, NSW
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    900

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    Some of those welds are obviously penetrating well - so they are getting better. Cut some sections from near the start of the weld as well as near the end and have a look.
    I have tokentools welders and I think they're pretty good value for money - but as others have said - just keep what you've got and the do the best you can with that gear. Once the welder is the limiting factor and not you, then maybe its time to upgrade.
    Fuel tank: Are you just trolling? I hear the Adelaide hospital burns unit is pretty good - maybe keep them on speed dial and book a flexible airfare?
    If nothing else think about wasted fuel, spills to the environment, damage to stuff in your boat (e.g. old floatation foam) safety and inconvenience for the people who have to come and find you and bring you home.
    Mick

  8. #53
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    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    71
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    Gazza, it basically boils down to this.
    Give a professional welder a crap machine, and he'll do reasonable welds.
    Give a DIYer a top of the range machine, and he'll still produce crap welds. It comes down to PRACTICE, PRACTICE and more of it!!! I'm not saying that your welds are crap, it's just the old adage, Practice makes Perfect.
    Stick with what you have in the way of welders.
    i personally don't see to big of a problem welding a fuel tank what is worse that can happen it leaks? it cannot explode because its a vented tank, that bait tank i tigged i can stand on top of it and i am almost 100kg and nothing happens to it
    The tank may not explode, but the fuel may leak into the bilge of the boat, and catch fire. Fuel vapour being heavier than air, build up after a while, there could be a short in the electrics, a battery terminal a bit loose, when you go to start the engine, there will be a spark across the loose terminals, and NO MORE GAZZA!!!!! Only a very crisp Gazza, and WE don't want to see that happen.
    I have seen proffesionally made tanks leak after a few years on 4WD vehicles, mainly from the flexing.
    There will be some form of flexing in the tank, have a look at a motor vehicle fuel tank, all those ribs in the tank aren't for show, they're to help stop flexing!!! The only design of a tank that won't have flexing is a round tank, with domed ends, as in a gas tank
    If the tank leaks, it's not just a simple matter of welding it up again. I've personally had a tank, that was cleaned and checked with a gauge gizzmo for vapours, explode on me, not the first time I welded the cracks, nor the third time but the fourth time. It was in an awkward spot that I couldn't get a grinder into to clean off the welds and the metal had fatigued, in several places alongside the OM welds.
    There is a reason that fuel tank manufacturers charge so much, it's not for the material or labour, it's to cover the cost for insurance, mainly Liability. DAMHIKT.
    There are inherent dangers in making a fuel tank, plus they MUST comply to the design rules, which if not, insurance companies will only be tooo happy not to pay out on a claim.
    After some searching I found this, https://www.amsa.gov.au/vessels-operators
    NATIONAL STANDARD for GENERAL SAFETY REQUIREMENTS for VESSELS Part G

    3.7 PERSONAL WATERCRAFT
    As set out in Table 1, instead of compliance with clauses 3.3 to 3.6, personal watercraft (PWC) must comply with either: a) ISO 13590; or
    b) SAE J1973, J2034, J2046, J2120, J2566 and J2608.
    It's mainly is about commercial vessels, but the section above is inluded, on the bottom of page 15.
    Hope this helps a bit.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  9. #54
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    Aug 2009
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    Thanks i will keep what i have as in welders, I never really thought to much about a leaking tanks as i would have pressure tested it than gone over any spots with the tig, fuel tanks don't cost that much only $400 there about's i will buy one or have one fabricated for me i just threw the idea out there thinking it were easy to build one my self

    Mick i was not trolling i just didn't see a great deal in it, just if u knew how many old boats get out there on the water with leaky and loose fuel hose fittings is astonishing, people running BBQ's right above fuel tanks and fuel breather outlets... nothing happens but I'm not saying it wont or cannot happen! you can google boat BBQ's on google picture search and see it every boat has a fuel tank breather near the side or rear of boats

    I cut up my welds yesterday i can currently testing my welds now i sanded down one weld with 800 than 1200 grit and using oven cleaner to etch the weld pool to see what the penetration looks like

  10. #55
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    Here is the cut and etch of the factory setting of 4 voltage and 7.5 wire feed, i will post pictures later of the cut and etch of the 4/9 settings i only spent about 10mins sanding so the etch is not a very good outline picture i will try do a better one later or tomorrow
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  11. #56
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    I got the chop saw out before dark and done some etching, cuts 1 and 2, 2 being the start of the weld, 1 being the end of the weld

    both sanded with 800 grit for around 20mins than etched with oven cleaner from coles, left to sit for around 5-10min than washed and dried

    pic 025 is cut 2, start of the weld

    pic 024 is cut 1, end of the weld

    by the looks of it i am wondering the wire to far out from the joint i think but not sure, do these settings look ok?

    cut 3 and 4 were no good the penetration bubbled on the other side melting almost all the way thru
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  12. #57
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    Oct 2011
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    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
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    Being able to produce a good sample is one thing (are they good or not? don't know. Personally I would prefer a weld with penetration to one without).
    The thing that separates good welders from bad is consistency. Anyone can fluke a good weld under good conditions but that is rarely what exists when welding real world jobs.
    The important question is whether you can weld consistently well all the time. The only way to do that is practice.

    Enough said.
    Michael

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
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    Hi Gazza2009au
    Please read the following and accept it in the spirit it is written.

    You do have a way to go in terms of lots more practice towards getting an acceptable weld bead before you are ready to begin your fuel tank.
    Penetration is but one of some important specific weld characteristics required, plus the freedom from weld defects.
    I have a background that included work with a non Destructive testing company. I have tested thousands of weld samples as then Australian Welding Instute certified welding Inspector.

    This excerpt came from a Qld, marine rescue document regarding the standard of rescue boats and that bit was meant to cover just the hull. It follows that the fuel tank should be more stringent. quote [ All welds shall be free from pits, crevices, slag, spatter etc ]

    I enlarged your last pics and can see lack of fusion on both the vertical edge on the top plate and the same on the bead to botton place interface. With that sample, there is a leakage path if used in a tank weld.

    (EDIT) I notice the 7.27PM post pics- much better.


    Some techniques I would recommend you to look into are:

    *Stops and starts 'kept to bare minimum. Cold lapping at the restart, meaning the re-ignition of the arc does not offer full and complete fusion.

    *Do not stop and start the bead at a corner. This is basic welding theory 101- same reason -cold laps.

    *The base material must be surgically clean.I wouldn't use old aluminum sheet cut out of somewhere else. Alumium picks up and absorbs contaiminants.

    *Use a dedicated stainless brush for aluminium only.

    * Some angle Grinder discs contaminate the weld with their residue. There are dedicated aluminum discs

    * Bear in mind that aluminum will re-oxidize after a few hours, so weld it soon after prepping.

    Personally, I would never use a mig for any fuel tank work because of cold starts.

    Grahame

  14. #59
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    Grahame that makes a lot of sense, they fuel tank idea i guess with the stops and starts i did think about the cold welds i were going to grind them down and go back over them with the tig but i will just get one built less worry

    The earlier welds were the recommended settings on the chart it gave me somewhere to start i than in post 7:27 upped my wire speed as Mick suggested and i found it worked much better for adding more penetration

    All the alloy i use is new some may have been laying around in the shed, i do have a problem with contamination when i use the circular saw but i think that was due to me cutting wood and possibly grass while cutting yhe sheet of alloy i think what might help me clean my material is a stainless wheel for the drill so once i have wiped down with acetone than wire brush than acetone wipe again before welding

    I do have consistancy welding on the bench but any other position is like learning all over again, i can practice and practice but i feel i have welding in a standing position just cannot weld in any other position,

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ballina, NSW
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    Gazza - good work getting some sections and photos together. Doing some recording and diagnosis like this is a huge step forward rather than random hit and miss.
    The sections show that you are not really biting into the top plate, so you need to angle the arc into that top plate a touch more.
    The cold weld at the starts is hard to avoid without some strategy - a topic for another day.
    I'm glad you're not trolling. Keep the lawn out of the welds.
    Cheers
    Mick

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