Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 68
  1. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lebrina
    Posts
    1,257

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    Maybe I have, Karl. My frustrating experience was that several DC inverter welders I tried to use 7016 and 7018 rods on simply would not maintain an arc at all. I measured the OCV and found the frustrating ones to be below 42V. I then tried my old transformer AC Welder with 55V OCV and it was 'less frustrating', but still not good welds. Re-starting almost impossible without chipping off the flux coating on the rod end. That old tranny has a 'Special electrode' connector with 70V OCV and off she went like a ripper. No trouble maintaining arc, good control, easy re-starting.
    I then looked at the specs and the rod packets are actually labelled for 50V min OCV. I looked at other brands and found them more or less all the same.
    I then looked for an inverter with higher OCV and measured it. My current Inverter has 55V OCV and works like a charm.
    I can only report my practical experience and frustrations and successes.
    So I have no idea how the mining people do it. I wonder if the pro inverters switch the VRD off for brief intervals when starting or re-starting and have it on when in use or when not making contact with a rod? In my mind that would work.
    Can you help explain my experience? Can others chirp in and report their experience with LH rods on lower end DC inverters?
    I wonder if some cheaper inverters do not produce a nice clean DC curren
    My own experience has shown me that starting is marginally harder with a VRD as reasonable contact needs to be made before the machine senses and sends full voltage. I do know that the yanks complain bitterly that their beloved 6010 electrodes will not run off inverters as well, however that has not been my experience. All the inverters with a VRD that I have run have been top end units so that may also have a bearing as well.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
    Age
    67
    Posts
    2,607

    Default

    OK, this is interesting! Always learning something new.
    Could someone (with a helper) measure the open circuit voltage of their inverter welder, strike an arc with both LH and cellulose rods, and keep measuring the voltage while the bead is being laid down? I think that would help identify some issues with low end welders. I'll do the same with my welders (as soon as I can get a chance.... I'll be in hospital from tomorrow for a couple of days, so not until later in the week)
    Cheers, Joe
    again completely retired - more time to contemplate projects and spend more shed time....

  3. #48
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    4,187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    OK, this is interesting! Always learning something new.
    Could someone (with a helper) measure the open circuit voltage of their inverter welder, strike an arc with both LH and cellulose rods, and keep measuring the voltage while the bead is being laid down? I think that would help identify some issues with low end welders. I'll do the same with my welders (as soon as I can get a chance.... I'll be in hospital from tomorrow for a couple of days, so not until later in the week)
    Sorry I don't have any LH rods otherwise I'd participate.

    BTW this situation is where a logging V meter comes in handy, but if you don't have one and especially if you are solo then try this.
    Set up the V meter behind an opaque scree using longer than usual meter leads.
    Set up a mobile phone camera in movie mode pointing at the meter display to record the V changes as you initiate the arc.
    That way you can easily see and replay the voltage changes if needed.

    Just be aware that it is possible to damage meters and mobiles by getting them too close to welding arcs.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
    Age
    67
    Posts
    2,607

    Default

    Bob, because I'd really like to learn more, can I stich a handful of LH rods in the mail to you? PM me.
    Cheers, Joe
    again completely retired - more time to contemplate projects and spend more shed time....

  5. #50
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    4,187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    Bob, because I'd really like to learn more, can I stich a handful of LH rods in the mail to you? PM me.
    Sure - I'll be in touch.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Herberton, Qld
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Loving this meandering thread )

    My 2c on a couple of things even tho [and possibly valid because] I am a relative beginner compared to the highly experienced posters in this thread.

    1. Fronius and other high end welders are way different and better than cheap Chinese welders, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's a big part of the reason for the difference in experiences mentioned with low hydrogen/ cellulose rods and vrd. Even the token tools inverter is unlikely to be apples/apples comparison.

    2. With 6013 rods, it's very hard (maybe not even possible) to see the slag distinct from the molten metal in the puddle, so trying to see it may only lead to frustration and tears.

    3. One of the good things about 6013 rods seems to be they are fairly tolerant of angle, so laying the rod over more (like 60 to 45 deg) makes them easier to strike and keep running with a short arc - for a beginner who has yet to develop good control and technique. One caveat, if the end of the rod is covered in flux, you'll need to file/tap it off for easier restarts, especially at 45deg. With the amps high enough you may even be able to drag the rod on the workpiece (not that I ever do, of course ;-). The satin craft rods will have amps range listed somewhere on the packet, you can start at the top end of the range and come down till it starts sticking and then go up a bit for a pretty good sweet spot in most positions. Keep the arc as short as possible without pushing it into the puddle (that's bad). 2.5mm rods will be easier to get up to speed with than 3.2mm. Once you start seeing some nice beads, stretch out with steeper travel angle, 3.2mm rods and the other types of joint.

    4. Finally, my favourite method for cleaning and deslagging is an angle grinder with a wire wheel (cup style). It's just so quick.

    Welding is great fun when you can do it, and heartbreaking when you can't, hours of trying and failing only to realise it's not working cause it's a rainy day and the air's too wet in my open shed sucks. No one I know has both the time and willingness to teach me, and courses are not in the budget so I have had to scour through a million you tubes and push through the heartbreak to learn. If you can do a course, I'd go that route...

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Penrith
    Age
    64
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Hi AdamAnt, many thanks for your informative reply. I'm quite enjoying playing around with the ancient Oxford RT 180, particularly since Grahame Collins has kindly emailed me a host of very useful data that's aimed at novice DIY arc welding tinkerers like myself. Note, Grahame has also offered to constructively critique pics of my emailed practice welds - fantastic feedback. In short, he's a marvellous and very much appreciated 'long distance' mentor. Accordingly, regarding "No one I know has both the time and willingness to teach me, and courses are not in the budget" (we're essentially in the same boat).....for consideration - either PM Grahame requesting email copies of his rather comprehensive notes etc, or subject to his approval, I can alternatively email you all the stuff I've recently filed away - if so, simply PM me your email address.
    Cheers, Ross

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Penrith
    Age
    64
    Posts
    28

    Default

    AdamAnt, I just trialled your recommended method of removing slag with a cup style wire wheel on my 5" grinder.....overall, definitely quicker than laboriously using a chipping hammer. No doubt it'll be even more effective once I become more competent and consistent with my weld beads. In hindsight, imagine the mind numbing racket in an environment where you were surrounded by arc welders persistently chipping away the slag.....and I thought noisy students in my Science Lab was bad !

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Herberton, Qld
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Thanks Ross, Grahame has kindly been in touch with me also, so it's all good, but I appreciate the offer. Cheers, Adam

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    4,419

    Default

    Just a word about the wire cup on angle grinders. Guys, there is no doubt they will do a sterling job, but there is a but.

    Please! please, do be extra careful with this type of angle grinder mounted wire brush.

    I have been down this road myself.


    I do use the cup brushes but only with a full face dedicated grinding shield.Not for de slagging put in prepping the surface for a protective coating.You should not have to beat the snot out of the slag to remove , or power brush it it should just tap off, if all is ok.

    The hazard lays in not matching the rated speed on the brush to that of the angle grinder. If the wire cup speed rating is under that the angle grinder speed there is real potential for danger. Excess speed can spit out loose wires and where could they end up.

    The twisted wire cup type resists the wire spit out better than the straight wire jobbies in which the straight wire fans out under centrifugal force.

    These damn things spit out wire at high speed and it punctures skin very quickly and almost painlessly.I have had occasion to pull one out of my cheek.Too close to the eyes for my comfort.

    I have had a number of punctures in my arms, the wire enters and lays parallel to the skin.

    Also, do not skimp on quality, buy the best quality brush you can afford.

    I purposely did not mention power brush wire cleaning, as it is a trap for young players, as they say.

    A quick precis on all of that

    *Full face sheild.
    *Check for speed rating
    *Use twisted wire cup brush.
    *Buy quality brushes

    As for the notes mentioned.
    I have been working on and off for a long while on a set of notes for stick welding as so many have lack of access through TAFE to a truly dedicated hobby welders course.
    It is meant as an online assistance.The notes are specifically aimed at someone who can't get to TAFE and has not the financial or locational acess .

    I intend to post The notes as a sticky after a few of our experienced members have had a look at them.
    There are a few people who do have drafts for comment and still a few people whom I have to ask if they would mind looking at them and making comment.

    I did offer Chimbu and Adam Ant notes to assist them but had not intended to say much online publicly until the notes were complete.

    I just ask that members who may want to access these stick welding notes please be patient until they are ready.


    Grahame

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Penrith
    Age
    64
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Grahame, once again, very sound advice. I recollect ages ago carefully extracting a few wayward wires from my grinder (Hitachi 10,000 rpm) attached cup brush (a German unit, max 12,500 rpm) - not pleasant ! I can't wait until I can consistently maintain the arc length, resulting in more uniform beads and thus fewer taps with the chipping hammer to remove the slag - rather than the current time consuming process of often pecking away like a 'wood pecker'.

    Thanks largely due to TAFEs primarily catering for trade/career oriented welding courses your notes are a godsend to tinkering novices like myself and Adam...it's truly a marvellous and worthwhile initiative - sincere thanks.
    Ross

  12. #57
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    4,187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    The twisted wire cup type resists the wire spit out better than the straight wire jobbies in which the straight wire fans out under centrifugal force.
    I agree that the twisted wire cup wheels are better at holding onto their wires than the radial wire lobbies and like you I also use them for general cleaning of metal.

    However radial wire wheels can do some things better than cupped wheels and that is why I have two angle grinders set up with wire wheels, one with a cupped wheel and the other with a radial wheel.
    Radial wheels are easier to use to clean up threads, cracks and narrow gaps and can often get into sharp 90 corners better than cupped wheels.
    If the parts are small then holding parts firm while applying a wire wheel on an angle grinder is not that easy.
    To handle small parts I often use an 8" fine radial wire wheel on a bench grinder.
    This does great job of cleaning rust off fine threads on small fasteners without mangling the thread. I usually hold the pieces with a mini multigrip although I often use my hands off to the sides of the wheel, I have been stung a few times on my hand by wires but nothing dramatic.

    I mainly use radial wire wheels in an angle grinder on natural edged timber to remove bark, grit and loose sapwood. The application is performed by gently moving the wheel back and forth along the grain, with the wheel lined up with the grain and only the outermost tips touching the wood. This reduces gouging and produces a straight line mark not unlike natural edged timber, whereas the cup wheels produce arcs and break up the gain.

    Why am I bothering to tell you this in a MW form? Well, like you I have experienced the sting of wires coming off a wheel so I always wear a full face shield and a long sleeved shirt, but what I have noticed happening is that most wires that are going to come off a wheel come off in the first 10 or so minutes of use and wires rarely if ever continue to come off after that, when using the wire tip only method

    If I push the wheel hard into metal work of course more wires will break off. Two of the radial wire wheels I currently have now rarely throw off wires even when used on metal - in fact I cannot remember the last time one threw a wire but it must be more than a year ago. All wire wheels work more effectively (even on metal) when only the tips are touching the work. The twisted wire cup wheels are so stiff they prevent the wire being bent over which maintains tip only presentation to the work. If a radial wire wheel isn't doing the job then instead of forcing the issue then it may be better to look for another solution like a cupped wheel or maybe a flap sander.

    I have watched folks using wire wheels at the mens shed and they generally tend to push too hard on the wheel which doesn't improves their effectiveness and increases the chances of wires coming off. Repeated swiping the wheel sideways on metal is probably also not going to help the wires stay on the wheel either.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    4,419

    Default

    I too, have a radial brush on a bench grinder, opposite end to the linisher belt. I binned a former Chinese source 200mm wheel as it spat too many wires from new.
    To replace it I found an Italian made wire brush wheel which rarely spits wire.

    When it does fling a wire it is not uncommon to find it a few hours latter embedded parallel under the skin. Does anyone know where I might find a European made wheel in 200mm. The shop where the Italian brush wheel came from is now closed down.

    I often buff components before assembly and welding, that makes for easier access.

    Grahame

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    45

    Default

    I'm another fan of radial wire wheels on angle grinders but I mount them on a variable-speed grinder running at virtually its lowest speed. They clean beautifully and at such a slow speed, their risk is significantly reduced. I generally wear a leather welding jacket as added protection against loose wires but at slow speed, this is infrequent. Just to digress slightly, I invested in a top-of-the-line Bosch 125mm angle grinder a few years ago. At $300 it certainly wasn't cheap but besides variable speed, it also included kick-back stop i.e. immediate stop if the blade is jammed. Fortunately that's only occurred once. After four years use, this grinder has been one of my best tools yet. I justified the increased purchase cost against the cost of an accident or mishap. Maybe worth considering?

  15. #60
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    4,187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    When it does fling a wire it is not uncommon to find it a few hours latter embedded parallel under the skin. Does anyone know where I might find a European made wheel in 200mm. The shop where the Italian brush wheel came from is now closed down.
    All of my wire wheels are Josco/Brumby wheels which is an Aussie company but none of them say where they are made.
    A mate of mine uses Dixbro wire brush wheels from NZ and these are made in NZ and he swears by them.
    Some wheels are sold as Josco/Dixbro branded whatever that means.
    I see the Dixbro wire brush wheels are for sale on eBay https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Josco-Di...4383.l4275.c10

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. QUEENSLAND Cig welder transarc tradesman HD (stick/arc welder) 3phase
    By dkaoffroad in forum METALWORK - Machinery, Equipment, MARKET
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 8th Jun 2013, 10:45 AM
  2. New Welder
    By Dingo Dog in forum WELDING
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 20th Aug 2012, 10:35 AM
  3. Using a lathe as a mill of sorts
    By takai in forum METALWORK GENERAL
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 27th Jul 2011, 09:04 PM
  4. Prospective Hercus owner
    By zbm in forum THE HERCUS AREA
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12th Oct 2010, 07:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •