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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Sth Gippsland Vic
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    130

    Default I have a welder problem

    Hi all.

    I have a problem that just started today with my Mig welder. And had me yelling at the thing cause I have so much to do and so little time to get it all done.

    The BOC 250 c mig started stopping / shorting out ? It stopped working mid weld . All lights on, and fan still running but nothing happened when I pulled the trigger .The red temp light was on .

    It has to be turned off and on to re set it , the temp light went off and I was away welding again , then it stopped again .

    I then figured out it was happening when the nozzle on the Gun came in contact with the metal I was welding while I was welding with the trigger pulled. I saw a spark at that contact a few times . I got through the rest of the day by making sure I didn't let the gun touch anything the earth clamp was connected to while welding .

    I pulled things apart from the gun back and checked all connections and found one thing that probably is the cause but couldn't fix it so I am here to see what you think .

    IMG_5241.JPGIMG_5242.jpg


    The red temp light is on after another Halt to work.
    IMG_5246.JPG

    when I got things apart I spotted a spot of weld down in the gun connecting the inner and outer metal parts . see red arrow.
    Could this be the problem ?
    I made a sharp tool up and tried but couldn't get it out . And I don't know if the two come apart at that point ?
    IMG_5247.JPGIMG_5248.JPG

    If that is what's doing it Ill have a better go tomorrow. otherwise what else could it be ?

    Rob

    My project.
    Ive been welding two radial arm saws to a common base . With screw adjustable feet to level things up where ever it goes in the workshop. And raised so the pallet jack can take it where ever quickly.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    71
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    Default

    It's not time for a new gun, it appears to be a Binzel brand, and parts are available from most welding supply shops, as are Tweco brands. The part you'll be after, if it can't be separated, is the neck. The part number would be in the paperwork when you bought it all, as there are several different models of hand pieces, for different amperage's and improvements/updates.
    To dismantle, you'll need to take the cover off the hand piece, there should be a nut/s on the back of the neck, undoing this should allow the inner section to be separated from the outer, from memory, which was a long time ago.
    When you get it fixed, spray some anti spatter or similar down there, which should prevent this from happening again.
    Hope this helps.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
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    6,446

    Default

    Kyrn is correct you will be should able to pull that gun head apart. I am not 100% on Binzels,Twecos I can take apart with my eyes shut,but the basic strip down is similar.

    What could possibly happen is that you might damage something in trying to unscrew the threaded pieces as the spatter may have "welded" them together. If you have a set of MIG pliers they have the shaped grips to unscrew the components.

    If it needs a replacement part, the model of the gun is a real necessity to help the welding shop spare part guy supply you with the correct replacement part. IF you have the gun model ID there are exploded views on the net and they should help to guide disassembly.

    If you don't have paperwork to ID the gun model,take the whole gun into the shop and they can probably ID it, if they are any good.

    EDIT < just did some googling and it looks like the Binzel black handled torch with a red button is an MB 25 AK. One of the Melbourne weld shops should have the gooseneck >

    Hope this helps

    I have to ask.Why are you welding two radial arm saws together?

    Grahame

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lebrina
    Posts
    1,910

    Default

    A word of caution on Binzel spare parts. Depending on the model of gun, a new neck may well be far in excess of what you can buy a generic Binzel copy for. For example, a genuine Binzel 355T neck goes for nearly $400. The 355T guns were fitted to BOC smootharc 275 and 350 machines among others, so not really an exotic beast.
    I see no reason that bit of spatter could not be removed. While you are at it, shout yourself a new contact tip, you'll be glad you did.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Mackay North Qld
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    Default

    Bobthewelder has some generic Binzel parts. If it is indeed a a model MB25AK the neck went for under $30 - Chinese for sure .Can't speak for the quality.

    On the other hand,in my opinion the BOC part could not possibly be worth the dollars they are asking.It begs the question about gouging on parts prices.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sth Gippsland Vic
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    Default

    Thanks for the replies guys . That one had me stumped .

    I didn't know just parts could be bought for the guns either.
    I figured out a way to get the spot of metal out . I have a Dremel and an air powered little grinder . I broke two bits getting down in between the tapered gap but it worked . I went and found the Nozzle dip stuff that I should have been using and gave the nozzle and other parts a going over .IMG_5260.JPGIMG_5261.JPG

    Rob

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Sth Gippsland Vic
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    Kyrn is correct you will be should able to pull that gun head apart.

    I have to ask.Why are you welding two radial arm saws together?

    Grahame
    I did get the gun apart to a point . But I stopped at trying to figure out how a plastic piece at the start of the neck could be taken off . I see now if the neck came out the spot would probably have stayed stuck to the stainless steel not the copper . I could have then easily ground or filed it off. .

    I'm welding the two radial arms together because I want a cutting saw and a trenching saw next to each other . They could be apart but its such a waste of space because Id need a bench and fence for each one. So its about using the one bench and fence for the two . The other thing is its raised so the pallet jack can easily move them around together. Im setting up a new workshop and all machines are raised and being moved while I figure out where they will live . Ive found that I really like the new raised height of pretty much all the machines though. They are all so much easier to use up 100 to 140 mm .

    Rob

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Murray Bridge S Aust.
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    Default

    Glad you've sorted it out. Be careful not to put too much of the dip in the nozzle, it will stop the gas flow until it melts, causing porosity in the welds.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Sth Gippsland Vic
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    It's not time for a new gun, it appears to be a Binzel brand, and parts are available from most welding supply shops, as are Tweco brands. The part you'll be after, if it can't be separated, is the neck.
    Thanks Kryn . I didn't know just parts could be got . Tha'ts good to know .
    I think my anti spatter can is finished so a new one next time I'm at BOC or is there a better way to get it ?

    Ive just got rid of the three E size bottles I was renting from BOC and gone over to Bunnings bottles so I don't really need to go in there as much now.

    Rob

  10. #10
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    Aug 2008
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    Adelaide
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    I think my anti spatter can is finished so a new one next time I'm at BOC or is there a better way to get it ?
    Rob
    They should have a pump action spray bottle of the liquid version. That is easier to apply.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Mackay North Qld
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    Default

    Gavin,
    If the the still hot mig nozzle is dipped into the anti spatter paste it applies a melted film of paste.It never blocks the gas diffuser holes as hot film.
    I know we were talking Bizel guns here but some info on Tweco gun head may prove helpful to others.

    Occasionally someone will install a (tweco type) insulator on upside down and that effectively blocks the diffuser openings. For tweco guys the internal thread end of the insulator is placed towards the contact tip end of the gun. On the Binzels and Bernards ( if I remember them properly) the insulator remains with the nozzle.

    If the nozzle is checked regularly for spatter what little spatter there is can be removed very easily.
    Mig plier jaws are so shaped to core the spatter out of the tweco type mig nozzle. The trick was never to let it build up.

    With the Binzel guns we had to unscrew them each time to clean them out and the welding crew never liked them much.They may well have improved.

    In my opinion the spray cans are not effective and the spray nozzle gets damaged and blocked just when you need it.

    The nozzle dip lasts much longer than a can but is prone to airborne dust contamination .

  12. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    Gavin,
    In my opinion the spray cans are not effective and the spray nozzle gets damaged and blocked just when you need it.
    We may be talking about different things here Grahame, the anti-spatter I'm referring to comes in a manual pump bottle, not a pressure pack. You can also get it in bulk (5l) containers from BOC and use any household spray bottle - which is the way I use it.

    Getting back to the original post, I have the 200 Amp versions of the same machine and have had the same issue very infrequently, mainly when welding galv stock where cr@p gets back in the nozzle and bridges the insulation.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Sth Gippsland Vic
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    Default

    When I applied the nozzle dip I did put a dab into the neck where my problem was . I just got an off cut of Mig wire and spread it around thin over the inside walls . Sounds like by what you are all saying that this is fine to do .

    Other questions about this gun are .

    Is the neck supposed to rotate ?
    When it was new I don't think it did that . It started rotating and I tried to tighten things but it didn't work so I just put up with it .



    And the welding tip that the wire comes out of .
    I do have a group of new ones on a piece of wire somewhere and will stick a new one on soon as I find them.
    But, Ive wondered about the tips before. Do they have a coating of anything to prevent spatter build up ? The one on the gun ATM was covered in spatter and instead of a new one I sanded it off on the linisher . I think its gathering spatter at a greater rate after the sanding . Its probably me being slack with not using the nozzle dip ??

    After the last little bit of trouble I will be keeping that can close from now on .
    A faulty welder right when you need it most, is a right PITA.

    Thanks for the help .

    Rob

  14. #14
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    Aug 2008
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    Other questions about this gun are .

    Is the neck supposed to rotate ?
    When it was new I don't think it did that . It started rotating and I tried to tighten things but it didn't work so I just put up with it .
    Mine is the same, it doesn't move much though - when I remove the nozzle the gooseneck does move about in the handle somewhat. But it's not floppy if you know what I mean..

    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post

    And the welding tip that the wire comes out of .
    I do have a group of new ones on a piece of wire somewhere and will stick a new one on soon as I find them.
    But, Ive wondered about the tips before. Do they have a coating of anything to prevent spatter build up ? The one on the gun ATM was covered in spatter and instead of a new one I sanded it off on the linisher . I think its gathering spatter at a greater rate after the sanding . Its probably me being slack with not using the nozzle dip ??
    Rob
    I don't mess about with refurbishing the tips, I treat them as consumables and replace them every now and then. I don't get a lot of spatter with the settings I use though so that helps.

  15. #15
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    The normal way to use the dip initially, is to weld enough to heat the nozzle, so that when it's dipped it coats the inside and the rest runs out. Don't push it all the way in, as it'll be wasted, probably about 20 - 25 mm max.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

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