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7th Feb 2017, 12:35 AM #1Diamond Member
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What size TIG do I need to make this SS water jacket
I want to buy a TIG, first project is to make one of these bolt on water jackets for myself. There will be other projects to follow, but the 4mm base plate for the water jacket is the thickest material I can see myself using.
I'm concerned about ending up with a water jacket that looks like a banana. To counteract that I'm thinking of bolting the base to a heavy piece of flat steel during welding, i.e. the underside of a piece of railway line, will that influence the size of the TIG that is required?
The second photo is a sketch of the manifold cross section.
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7th Feb 2017, 01:22 AM #2
Oh, I think welding 1mm sections to 4mm plate is going to be hard.... I would use 1mm and fold it like the original and then weld on the ends fabricated from the same material but made in bits and welded up....
Yes, clamping everything to a straight piece of steel will help. If you use a flat piece of stainless in between the part you are making and the steel, then you don't have to use so much heat (SS is not a good conductor).Cheers, Joe
retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....
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7th Feb 2017, 02:34 AM #3
Just about any small tig could handle 4mm SS, 100a should be enough for 4mm and 1mm would only need maybe 30a
By the looks the back plate is a separate piece would you need to weld the outer cover to the backing plate?
Is there gaskets behind the backing plate?(Im assuming the backing plate is only there too distribute the coolant evenly)....................................................................
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7th Feb 2017, 10:08 AM #4Golden Member
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Tig can be really expensive. A rule of thumb is (translated from the American) ~40A/mm of thickness. It tends to work reasonably well for thin materials. But it never hurts to have too much capacity (except the wallet hurts). So if your maximum thickness is going to be 4mm then you could get away with a ~150A machine, maybe, if such a thing was common. They are, but 150A tig is generally kind of basic. 180-200A seems to be where they start getting more serious.
Are you going to want fancy pulse settings, and a modulating foot pedal? (the answer to the former is maybe, the latter definitely yes for me)
Another question - would you ever want to weld aluminium?
Do you want to deal with gas $$? And five million extra pieces of equipment that all add up?
Tig's awesome, and it's the only welding I do now, but it's not cheap.
Listen to Joe, an alternative design might be easier to weld than a 1mm/4mm fillet. Same with the pipe elbow if there are big thickness differences. If you can bump up the thickness of the jacket that will make your life easier.
If you bolt the flange to something it should keep it straight. As long as you can weld around all the bolt heads since they're pretty close to the jacket gallery.
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7th Feb 2017, 11:13 PM #5Senior Member
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Hi Bob
Offer still stands, your welcome to come for a drive up the hill and have a play with my UniMig AC/DC 200, modified Lincoln foot controller, have a big bottle of gas and have ER316SS filler rods in both 1.6mm & 2.4mm.
Mild steel I normally setup around 30amp per mm for the thinner stuff, and go up to 40amp per mm. This is all with a foot pedal tho so I can always back off the amps but can not add more then the max I have set.
I have not done much SS as of yet but know that it's a poor heat conductor which may work in your favour amps wise, I know with aluminium you have to pump the amps into it at the start while the material heats up but then have to back right off towards the end as the material becomes heat soaked.
Another big thing to consider when sizing a machine is duty cycle, for example my 200amp UniMig is
Duty Cycle 40 Deg C - TIG
20%@185A / 100%@90A
So say I'm welding 5mm mild steel, working on 40amps/mm I would need the full 200amps, this however would land me with a duty cycle less then 20%
Mind you with a air cooled torch I'm going to be struggling to hold on to the torch with too much high amp welding anyway...
Cheers
Wayne
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8th Feb 2017, 05:11 PM #6Golden Member
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I agree. My first thought was that the thin metal should at least have a flange on it so it sits flat against the base - the flange doesn't have to be as wide as the base, even a few mm would do, but would allow a much easier overlap weld as opposed to a thin to thick fillet weld (can tricky in SS). I wouldn't worry so much about the railway track sucking heat out, I was more thinking about mild steel contamination of the hot SS. So a barrier layer (even a layer of aluminium foil?) might be worthwhile. Probably not an issue since that will be on the underside.
Also, what does the base piece look like? Will it have a series of central holes? a large slot? If a slot, then this could be sized so that the folded piece slots into it - this would open up some opportunities for welding either internally or a slightly more manageable external fillet weld.
[edit] forgot to mention, make sure you stagger and backstep your welds. If if you clamp the work down whilst welding, there can still be a lot of internal stresses that will make the thing want to banana when you release the clamps.
Cheers
- Mick
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9th Feb 2017, 11:50 PM #7Most Valued Member
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Do you really need to use Stainless? Mild steel will be just as good provided corrosion inhibitor is used in the engine and a lot easier to work with. Stainless is the distortion king.
How are you planning on cutting out the flange? CNC laser profile cutter, plasma, water jet cutter or manually?
1mm seems too thin for the body. A step up to 1.6mm would be much easier for you.
If it were my job, I'd get the flange either laser cut or if cost too great then cut it out by hand from good old steel, then form the body from 1.6 steel that would then fit neatly inside the hole in the flange. After lots of tacking, a nice hot and quick TIG fusion weld inside would complete the job, followed by some post weld straightening as and if required.
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13th Feb 2017, 11:54 PM #8Diamond Member
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These are 2 photos of the front and back of a water jacket made by someone else, this more closely resembles what needs to be made.
For a couple of reasons I'll go with making them from stainless steel, I can choose whatever thicknesses are best suited to the welding process. I don't want to go any thinner than 4mm for the base, if the welding process will be easier with a 1.6mm (maybe 2.0mm?) top section that will be the way to do it.
I had in mind make to up templates and do the cutting with a plasma, is the plasma cut edge suitable for tig welding or does it need further preparation?
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14th Feb 2017, 09:39 AM #9
If that was me it Id have a go at making it into a cool blingy hotrod bit
Nice thick back plate and use some nice SS tubing and bends of several sizes to near match the factory hole diameters in the backing plate going into a log manifold and make like a old school exhaust extractor looking set up... then polish it up
Could always do it in copper too if you're rich man....................................................................
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14th Feb 2017, 10:35 AM #10Golden Member
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I've only just started using a plasma, and only on aluminium so far. The cut is dirty enough that I'm routing the edges afterwards with a plunge router before welding. If it were stainless I'd probably plasma cut them just proud and pull them back with a die grinder/carbide burr to clean metal. Test first and see.
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14th Feb 2017, 11:21 AM #11Intermediate Member
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I find that my plasma leaves a nice edge on steel that just needs a quick hit with a wire brush and it's ready to weld, but that with aluminium the edge is sometimes a bit rough and daggy so I compensate by cutting slightly oversize and bringing it back with a file or a flap wheel. That said though, my plasma is a bit cheap and nasty!
I have also found, however, that *sometimes* it makes a decent cut in aluminium, so that tells me that it's probably mostly operator error when I get bad cuts.
Two things that really affect a plasma cutter a lot are air quality and consumable condition. I found a huge improvement when I upgraded my water separator, and every time I replace my tips I wish I'd done it sooner! I would probably see a bigger improvement still if I added a proper drier to the air supply, but I can't justify it right now.
Jon.
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14th Feb 2017, 11:33 AM #12Golden Member
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I use a La-man 520A as well as a regular separator. Time will tell how it goes with the plasma but for other operations it seems to clean and dry the air very well. I've also set up a cooling system by coiling up several metres of copper tube before the La-man so the tube sits in a bucket of water.
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14th Feb 2017, 11:42 AM #13Intermediate Member
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Also, in response to what size/which TIG machine to buy - have a read through this thread:
//metalworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=199667
Sent from my Lenovo YT3-X50F using Tapatalk
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14th Feb 2017, 10:31 PM #14Most Valued Member
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The design of the sample water jacket is interesting. It would appear that it is a flat plate with a few strategically placed holes, covered by the upper works from which an elbow exits. There is an awful lot of weld required in that design. Weld that will cause distortion, particularly where stainless is concerned. Is there a specific reason for this design? If not, then a design incorporating two folded halves would be far preferable - you could possibly even drop back to 3mm for flange and body throughout.
Are you a competent TIG welder? If not, then the 1200 odd mm of weld will be challenging to keep leak free and aesthetically pleasing. It is always advisable to minimise the amount of welding in any design, particularly when stainless is the material of choice.
Plasma cutting will not produce a weldable quality edge, so I would recommend a 1mm cutting disc for all straight cuts, or better yet a guillotine. Close fit up will be your friend.
Endeavour to minimise welding and maximise folding in any design.
Just about any TIG will handle your proposed job, but I would suggest an AC/DC TIG of around 200A capacity (if you play with cars, you will want AC at some point for aluminium and magnesium). Pulse would be icing on the cake, but not essential.
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