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Thread: TIG vs Nickel Bronze
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26th Oct 2015, 04:34 PM #1
TIG vs Nickel Bronze
I've done a fair bit of TIG brazing with Silicon/Bronze rods and that works well. On the weekend I tried using Nickel/Bronze rods but the result was mass fumes and spitting - I assume from the Zinc component of the rods. This was on DCEN. I've yet to try them on AC, that's next weekend's "fun" experience.
In the meantime, has anyone had much luck brazing with Nickel Bronze using TIG?
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26th Oct 2015, 05:32 PM #2
I would like to try brazing with a TIG, but everything I have read says that zinc based brazing rods are bad news and generally provide less than optimal results.
Where did you get the silicon/bronze rods.Cheers.
Vernon.
__________________________________________________
Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.
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26th Oct 2015, 05:41 PM #3
Vernon
I got the rods from Southern Cross Industrial Supplies (http://www.scis.com.au/)
Silicon Bronze brazes nicely with TIG, you have to keep the amps down so that you don't melt bronze into the edge of the steel, that makes for a brittle joint, but the filler flows very nicely and is easy to control.
The Nickel Bronze has a high percentage of Zinc which is why I think I'm having trouble with it. I used to use it with the Oxy/Acetylene but cannot justify the cylinder rental for 2 extra bottles these days, it's bad enough with the gas for the MIG and the TIG setups!
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26th Oct 2015, 07:00 PM #4
You can buy cylinders for oxy/acetylene/argon/argon mix these days, so you don't have to do cylinder rental. Price wise, I think it works out cheaper if your average usage is under about four D size refills a year.
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26th Oct 2015, 11:42 PM #5Most Valued Member
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Unfortunately we can't buy these cylinders in SA yet.
Kryn
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27th Oct 2015, 07:28 AM #6
Kryn.
Bunnings have the Oxy/Acetylene in D sizes but I haven't priced them.
Total Tools have Oxy/Acetylene, Argon & Argon Mix in D and E sizes (not E2 or G/G2 though).
Their E cylinder price is $499 each plus $135 for a refill of the Argon and Argon mix gases.
It's early days yet for Total Tools though, the lad I spoke to there knew very little about the setup and had no idea whether they would ever have the G bottles.
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28th Oct 2015, 10:12 PM #7Senior Member
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Bunnings $200 deposit on the cylinder $69 oxy fill, $99 acetylene fill.
Total Tools Mitcham doesn’t have acetylene, argon d is 349, I think 99 for refill. The difference is, bunnings it's a deposit, take the bottle back and get your money back. Total Tools, power10, you own it for life..
Ps, bunnings sell Coregas, owned by wesfarmers
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30th Oct 2015, 08:35 AM #8
detonated-civic-628.jpgThread hijack by Grahame
Given the handling accident potential for a G cylinders I would say the retailers will not carry them.
I hate to say it but there is also a potential for an accident during the transport home phase of oxygen and acetylene cylinders. Both carry instructions via the applicable code to position them upright and secured.
Handling and weight issues aside,that leaves the easily moved smaller cylinders.
Someone will blow themselves up in a fatal but spectacular vehicle accident and the existing Codes/regs will be applied in the usual bureaucratic knee jerk reaction forcing all who don't have access to an open back truck to have their cylinders couriered home.
As popularity of these particular gases grow among the diy handy man group, the statistical probability of such an accident increases.
With the welding gas cylinder depots I am familiar with , the staff there will refuse to allow a cylinder to be loaded into anything but an open back truck. I have forgotten the applicable code but trust me there is one.
From what I can tell ,the Bunnings and the Total tools staff don't apply any duty of care past the checkout.
If a customer fronts up and wants to cart the cylinder home unsecured,the shop staff selling the cylinders don't know or don't want to know- as this will affect sales.
Think back a few years and there seemed to be a spate of explosion of cylinders in plumbing vans.
Think about it if you purchase oxy or acetylene cylinders to take home.
Above is a pic of a Honda Civic after such an event. Luckily no fatalities in that one due to the fact of the owner triggering the remote as she approached the car.
My apologies for the thread hijack but, I felt it was needed.
Grahame
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30th Oct 2015, 09:41 AM #9
Grahame
No need for an apology, I was thinking along he same lines in relation to the G size bottles but I lived in hope that they might start stocking them. BOC locally are generally hot on the transport of cylinders which is a good thing but it varies from depot to depot - the one I use is very strict (which is no problem for me as I have a tray-top) but another depot in Adelaide allows loading of Acetylene in the back of vans, laid down.
The staff at the local Total Tools appear to have no idea what they are dealing with, to them it's just another item to be rung up on the register so safety is left to the buyer.
Meanwhile, back on the original reason for the thread, I abandoned the idea of TIG brazing with Nickel Bronze and went back to Silicon Bronze. I did try them on AC with varying degrees of EN/EP balance but couldn't get them to work nicely. The fumes were the final killer if you'll pardon the pun, the Nickel Bronze rods have gone to a good home elsewhere.
Thanks to all for the input.
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2nd Nov 2015, 01:52 PM #10Golden Member
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I lay my argon down flat and secure it with multiple straps to keep it still. The downside to only having a wagon.
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3rd Nov 2015, 09:15 AM #11Golden Member
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Acetylene is the one you don't want to lay down and then use straight away due to the acetone which needs to drain away from the valve first. I think the only risks with argon are either a) the cylinder valve gets broken and the whole thing goes beserk, or b) the valve gets bumped and the whole car fills up with Argon and you suffocate. Although I haven't tried it, I can't think of any reason that you couldn't use an argon cylinder upside down if you wanted to.
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3rd Nov 2015, 10:01 AM #12
The difficulty in in brazing with a brazing filler is in the temperature range of its constituent alloy metals.
Zinc has a extremely narrow temperature window between becoming molten and then it flashing off as a gas.
I can't speak about using tig but have done many many hours of oxyacetylene based brazing. Overheat the molten filler and the zinc will flash off.Its a matter of the amount of time ( literally) in seconds that the heat source can be allowed to bear on the molten pool.
The tig and oxy heat sources are pretty applied in a much similar fashion save the outright temperatures achieved by them.
The time span when the metal comes up to flash temperature with a tig is quite rapid and I imagine very difficult to control.
If there is a technique for tig application, I haven't heard of it yet.
The flash of gas is the stuff that makes you ill when inhaled.
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3rd Nov 2015, 02:41 PM #13
Thanks Grahame
The TIG / Nickel/Bronze idea was triggered by the success I've had with Silicon Bronze using TIG.
We have a couple of joints in the superkart chassis which we braze with Nickel/Bronze using Oxy/Acetylene (the rest is MIG welded) so I had the thought that I could try using the TIG.
As I've said, I've tried DCEN, AC with variations on DCEN/DCEP balance, pulsing and different shape wave forms and haven't come up with anything repeatable. Some welds show good wetting in parts but it's hit & miss at this stage.
In the end, as I've discovered, it's not worth the hassle or, more importantly, the risk and so we'll continue to braze those joints.
Thanks for the input.
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