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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Gladstone
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    Default C02 for Mag Welding

    Hi all,

    I've been trolling through the forums and been reading up on using C02 for MAG welding around home, I know it's not the best and it isn't good for thin stuff but the cost saving seems pretty good.

    I will be buying a 6kg pub gas cylinder from a home brew shop but was wondering what fitting do I need to allow me to use my argon cylinder that comes with the mig?

    Is there a fitting or do I need to make something up??

    Thanks in advance

    Simon

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Armidale NSW
    Age
    52
    Posts
    915

    Default

    I have also moved to CO2 and made up an adapter (see here) however I believe there is a commercially available adapter.

    I will see what i can find.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Armidale NSW
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    52
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    915

    Default

    Actually here is another thread where the adapter is discussed. Unfortunately the site referenced is currently undergoing some maintenance.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gladstone
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Thanks for your help Vernonv.

    How have you found welding with C02? Have you tried it on thin sheet?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Armidale NSW
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    Default

    Yeah I've done some body work on the Landcruiser using 0.9mm zincaneal. It worked really well, although I use a "series to tacks" method to weld i.e. do a tack, wait very briefly, do another tack next to the first, wait, do another tack ... and so on.

    That method helps reduce burn through.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Co2 is not the panacea shield gas for the lower end MIG unit owners who wish to weld sheet metal with any success. I define success as welding the sheet without the excess penetrations or distortion problems created by the over welding and then subsequent dressing off of the excess welded deposits.

    MAG works very well in industry because on heavy section metal it is high deposition and deeply penetrating,to which it is very well suited . Its not a wise choice for thin panels.The argument against goes along the same lines for fluxcore ( gasless) for sheetmetal as well.Those promoting it to DIY people for panel work are either ignorant or just salesman ignoring the customers best interests for a quick sale.


    Heres what the pommy site mig .uk said about the Co2 shield gas

    Quote < CO2 vs Argon/CO2 Mix (0.8mm to 1.2mm steel)

    CO2 doesn't maintain an arc as well as Argon Mix. On low voltages (probably the lowest couple of settings on most MIG welders) the wire will tend to ball on top of the surface and not penetrate the metal. The arc doesn't appear to start until the wire has touched the work, and it extinguishes as the wire burns back resulting in the 'weld' being made in a series of pops and spatters that the photo doesn't do justice to. Wire speed setting or technique do not appear to influence the effect. Simply CO2 does not work on low voltage settings.

    >Unquote
    There will be of course some variation with different welders and sheet thicknesses around the country but in general the assertion is correct.

    Cheers
    Grahame

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NINGI Qld Australia
    Age
    68
    Posts
    208

    Default

    I just can't see why so many do everything to avoid paying for the correct gas. With so many people I see in every day life spending so much on other things that I consider non essentials like smokes, take away food, pay TV, expensive phone plans, etc etc. I figure with renting and E size bottle based on using about 1 bottle a year for odd home jobs it only works out to be about $7.00 a week, the cost of 1 hamburger these days... When you then work out the cost saving on flux cored wire and other adaption costs that $7.00 can become considerably less.
    When welding inside and out of the wind I can use fairly low shield gas flow rates and with the MIG it seems to last for ages. Turning the bottle off whenever not welding etc.
    Outside I just prefer to use the stick anyway and todays lightweight inverters make that so much easier. Any major project the gas will pay for itself regardless.
    The welding job is just so much better, cleaner and more satisfying with the recommended gas for me. I did too put it off for many years but no going back now.
    At the end of the day it's each for their own and budgets are perhaps a bit tight so it just depends on your priorities I guess and I will do without something else before my shielding gas goes..

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Fellas
    If you follow the link below there is some interesting reading on saving gas.
    For sure the bottom line is to sell you something but there a lot of snippets of info all relative to GMAW.

    There is a reference to a good book on Auto welding which I may shell out some $ on.

    Mig Gas Waste & Weld Quality

    Cheers
    Grahame

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    This idea that Argon/CO2 is the "correct" gas is pretty presumptuous. CO2 is a perfectly valid shield gas for MIG welding, in fact, superior to Ar/CO2 for some applications. I use mine on a farm, and I guess that probably isn't the case for others, but for my work it's worked out very well.

    Secondly, I do my best to avoid pissing money up walls. Yes, many people do, but they're the same ones who turn around and whinge about "doing it tough". $7 a week is $350 a year forever, and you pay that whether you use the welder or not. I paid $250 for my CO2 bottle - that's it. It doesn't cost me a cent to have it sitting around. That $100 I don't spend in rent in the first year and the $350 a year after that can go towards tools.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Armidale NSW
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    Default

    I'm with Rusty Arc and don't see CO2 as the "wrong gas" and also don't like to waste money (especially when I think I'm being gouged).

    It's funny, all these things that CO2 apparently can't do, I've done successfully. Maybe I should start listening to the "theory" and stop happily using CO2 for things it seems to be quite able to do.

    Now here is my disclaimer : I'm a hobby welder and do lots of varying smallish jobs - I can get away with using a gas that may not necessarily be absolutely perfect for the task at hand. If I was a professional welder (and was charging customers for my work) then I would pick a gas best suited to the task I was doing i.e. I would probably have multiple gases.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NINGI Qld Australia
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    68
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    208

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyArc View Post
    This idea that Argon/CO2 is the "correct" gas is pretty presumptuous. CO2 is a perfectly valid shield gas for MIG welding, in fact, superior to Ar/CO2 for some applications. I use mine on a farm, and I guess that probably isn't the case for others, but for my work it's worked out very well.

    Secondly, I do my best to avoid pissing money up walls. Yes, many people do, but they're the same ones who turn around and whinge about "doing it tough". $7 a week is $350 a year forever, and you pay that whether you use the welder or not. I paid $250 for my CO2 bottle - that's it. It doesn't cost me a cent to have it sitting around. That $100 I don't spend in rent in the first year and the $350 a year after that can go towards tools.
    It's seems definitely worth considering and a great saving if it works well. I have just heard mixed reports about it so I didn't want to take a risk, outlay the initial cost in setting it up and finding it has limitations. I tend to weld a broad cross section of material from light to heavy so the mix seemed to be the way to go and I am just saying that there are plenty of things that we spend our money on and for me the gas provides worthwhile value in getting nice quality welding results. I would go the CO2 way too if I could put it through some tests and it was working well.

    So when you own your own CO2 bottle, is it much of a drama to get it refilled, places that do it or is it on a swap over basis. Does the bottle have to be tested from time to time? Do you have any problems welding at low voltage settings?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
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    6,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyArc View Post
    This idea that Argon/CO2 is the "correct" gas is pretty presumptuous. CO2 is a perfectly valid shield gas for MIG welding, in fact, superior to Ar/CO2 for some applications. I use mine on a farm, and I guess that probably isn't the case for others, but for my work it's worked out very well.
    There is no one size fits all situation,but I would hate to see beginners expending the hard earned money on welding situations with sheet metal and car panels that won't bring them a pleasing result.

    If you look at this post and the previous one I would ask you to point out where I said the CO2 was incorrect.I pointed out the instances where it won't work efficiently.For sure my opinions are slanted with an industry bias but what of those of the DIY go to web site for mig welding.Are they wrong too?

    For those of you who have been around around for long enough, I pointed out,a good while back, of the lack of cost effectiveness with SIP Co2 disposable Cylinders.A whole 8 or 10 mins of welding for $30 -no one being gouged there?

    Your cylinder is stamped and at an interval will have to be checked and re-stamped just like LPG cylinders-expect not to be gouged there perhaps?

    Maybe by then the cylinders will come out of China when the Australian Gas refill industry is on its RRs.

    Save your dollars in the right places I say

    Grahame

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    My 6.8Kg bottle (not sure what letter size that translates to) cost about $70 to refill at the local homebrew shop. I'm not sure about the bottle test interval - I assume it's something 10 years like barbecue LPG bottles.

    You can weld <1mm, but not easily - as mentioned, at very low volts the weld starts to come out in little balls rather than establishing a nice puddle.

    I think the choice is pretty clear - if you're wanting to do car panels and sheet metal work in general, Ar/CO2 is the correct choice, and well worth paying for.

    If, like me, you're mainly welding structural sections from 1.6-6mm, then CO2 is a cheaper and entirely viable option.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Armidale NSW
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    Your cylinder is stamped and at an interval will have to be checked and re-stamped just like LPG cylinders-expect not to be gouged there perhaps?
    The company I got my cylinder off will swap out your 10 year old cylinder for an already re-tested one for free (excluding shipping of course). So as long as they are still around when the time comes, I won't feel couged at all.

    Now even if the company isn't around I could simply purchase a new bottle with another 10 years on it. It only takes about 2 (maybe 3) years for a CO2 bottle to pay for itself, compared to hiring.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    32

    Default

    I use CO2 and my comments echo others. It doesn't seem to do as tidy a job as Ar/CO2 mix and the results are not as good looking - but it works, and with an owner bottle it is a no-brainer.
    For testing - try a fire extinguisher place as many extinguishers are CO2. Likewise, you can convert a large extinguisher by changing the valve - as long as all the test and dates are ok. One of mine started life this way, and it was converted by the bottle testing place.
    Geoff

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