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  1. #91
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Thanks for the links guys.

    Up here in the reginal town of Queensland situations can be different to those in the heavier populated areas of Australia.

    The deal killer for me might be that that $400 or so for an E cylinder which is 4 cubic meters .A "D" size at 1.7 cubes is not as cost effective for a longer session of welding. Two cylinders ,argon and Argosheild mix, needed so $800 is still lots of money?

    I notice in their faqs that the current players will only fill their own cylinder (brand) for safety reasons. Yeah right !
    They never stop do they ?

    Cylinders must meet the AS standards,so ergo all welding gas cylinders made available for sale or rental must meet the particular safety standard . Methinks it has less to do with safety and more to do with commercial advantage and profit maximisation. Other wise we would all pick up the cheapest cylinder (that complied with the SAA standard) and have who ever swap it over at the best price .

    The LPG swap and go outlets, don't refuse a cylinder because it is another company brand now,do they ? Hello ACCC.
    Is it me being cynical or are there other reasons I am unaware of.

    It would be easy to rush early , but having dealt with gas suppliers before they can be sneaky buggers and let you become committed and then the sorts of issues as noted above come up.
    The point is you are then committed to one company. What about the freedom of choice?

    Grahame

  2. #92
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    100

    Default

    I guess one problem might be ending up with rented bottles and the legal issues surrounding that.

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    74

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    [...]It would be easy to rush early , but having dealt with gas suppliers before they can be sneaky buggers and let you become committed and then the sorts of issues as noted above come up.
    The point is you are then committed to one company. What about the freedom of choice?

    Grahame
    I asked them all for details of their contracts, to see how sneaky they could be. The local welding shop quoted gas refills and said that BOC would send an invoice for "rental" whenever. Hard to know what this mans exactly. So that could be deals where people rent a cylinder, for the gas only price do a ton of welding in a short time, and take it back and end up not paying much for rental.

    I think the ACCC could be interested but the volume of users is probably too low to make it a priority.

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    74

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mac_man_luke View Post
    I guess one problem might be ending up with rented bottles and the legal issues surrounding that.
    Hmmm maybe. I got a SwapNGo green plastic skinned thinner metal BBQ gas cylinder.

    A. they only fill to 8.5kg not 9.
    B. the contract says I own the cylinder, but only they can fill it. Something about their precision electronic fills and safety - probably made up.

    Presumably, I could get someone to fit a different valve assembly that would permit usual refills.

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    429

    Default

    As I said before, everything about the industriil gas market is crook.

    NOTHING is charged out at a price that represents the cost of providing the product pluss a fair commercial margin.

    While there are some upstart gas companies giving it a red hot go......a very large portion of the world industrail gas market is controlled by two companies BOC and LINDE....and that means everything about it.....including base materials and equipment to make and dispense gas.....so there is a limit to how low the price wil get.



    But one thing is for certain.
    I have just baught a G sized argon mix.....yeh its a hefty slug.....but I will be ahead after two years.

    I've been paying rediculous gas bottle rentals for over 20 years......these crooks have probably had somewhere in the vacinity of $10 000 to $15 000 in todays money out of me in bottle rental.....and it has cost them diddly squat.

    It is rediculous that those who cost the least to service are being charged the most.

    Give you an idea of the extent of this vested interest.
    In some other countries it is compulsory that indistrial gas bottles are transported with a screw on protective cap ( helmet) to protect the valve and the kneck of the bottle from being busted off and the bottle taking off literally like a rocket....a very dangerous situation.

    This will never happen in australia because BOC and liquid air have so many old bottles without this feature, mandating helmets would nearly put them out of business.

    My new bottle came with a helmet.

    Remember that rented bottle from either of the two usual suspects has a pretty good chance of being 20 years old or more.
    Please look at the dates on your bottles and post up in my "how old is that bottle thread", so the truth about this can be known.

    As far as this resriction about only being filled by the supplier of the bottle......well hell yeh it is a restrictive trade practice plain and simple.

    There is absolutly no reason for it......These days if you rented a bottle, they are tracking individual bottles to individual users.
    AND all of those company owned bottles are indelibly branded on the bottle in addition to having a locking barcode tag.

    SO..why should I not get MY bottle that is MY property fillied or exchenged by whoever I damn well like.


    This swap and go thing is fairly new ( in commercial terms) and terms have changed....originally they would charge you extra to swap an out of date bottle......but when one player came to the market with a no questions asked ( as long as it looked OK)swap and go offer...they all rolled over.

    YEH I'll be very intersted how this all plays out in the next couple of years.
    Particularly is an upstart player with some big backing like WESFARMERS comes with no questions asked refill polocy.

    As far as the standards for industrail gas bottles.....hell all new gas bottles have to be stamped as complying with australian standards......which is more than can be said for some of the industrial relics that BOC is still circulating.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    493

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    Thanks for the links guys.

    Up here in the reginal town of Queensland situations can be different to those in the heavier populated areas of Australia.

    The deal killer for me might be that that $400 or so for an E cylinder which is 4 cubic meters .A "D" size at 1.7 cubes is not as cost effective for a longer session of welding. Two cylinders ,argon and Argosheild mix, needed so $800 is still lots of money?

    I notice in their faqs that the current players will only fill their own cylinder (brand) for safety reasons. Yeah right !
    They never stop do they ?

    Cylinders must meet the AS standards,so ergo all welding gas cylinders made available for sale or rental must meet the particular safety standard . Methinks it has less to do with safety and more to do with commercial advantage and profit maximisation. Other wise we would all pick up the cheapest cylinder (that complied with the SAA standard) and have who ever swap it over at the best price .

    The LPG swap and go outlets, don't refuse a cylinder because it is another company brand now,do they ? Hello ACCC.
    Is it me being cynical or are there other reasons I am unaware of.

    It would be easy to rush early , but having dealt with gas suppliers before they can be sneaky buggers and let you become committed and then the sorts of issues as noted above come up.
    The point is you are then committed to one company. What about the freedom of choice?

    Grahame
    Unfortunately it is the dark side of Australian commerce. The way to build a market in Australia is to build a monopoly or an otherwise unfair setup that relies on contracts, traps, lock in's and other ways to force the consumer to a commitment and not an attractive product or service that is chosen because it is the best or attractive for some other reason. The ACCC is as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike.
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  7. #97
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    100

    Default Argon

    Got my E of argon today

    Got warned that if i loose the "helmet" they won't swap it!

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mac_man_luke View Post
    Got my E of argon today

    Got warned that if i loose the "helmet" they won't swap it!
    Hi Luke,
    Thats a important thing to know first up.

    The Linde type pattern cylinders have the threaded cap presumably to prevent snapping off of the brass cylinder valve assembly in the event of a filled cylinder falling over. .It would logically follow that a cylinder with out said cap will present unacceptable safety (read insurance ) problems if it were to be refilled and transported.

    If its not too cheeky to ask?

    What did you pay for the new cylinder and the fill ?
    I am told the welding gas swap & Go system is coming up here in Mackay. I am interested in what they may try to to charge up here.

    Grahame

  9. #99
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Yea no way i would loose something like that anyway, at least they warned about it - could make an expensive paper weight if you loose it (although I'm sure you could get a replacement)

    Cost was $420 up front, bit of $$ but i don't see myself ever being a big user so a year or 2 and ill be way in front.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ballina, NSW
    Posts
    900

    Default

    The prices I got today where $285 to buy an empty E (4.1m3) cylinder and $325 for a G (8.5m3), with refill prices of $175 and $240 respectively (incl. freight). I currently rent G size cylinders, but I worked out that I could buy E's and be ahead in 3 years and have the convenience of a smaller cylinder and I wouldn't have to go and pick them up. The savings are better obviously with G cylinders (about 2 years to break even). I'm going to ring around a bit in the rental market see what how much I can shake that down, just for kicks really, I've pretty much made my mind up to buy.

  11. #101
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Refill prices are not cheap but i guess thats covering the shipping.

  12. #102
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    429

    Default

    Those refill prices sound a bit steep.....I was quoted around $120 for an E and about $140 for a G. argon or any argon mix.
    Delivererd

    When I do the bas at the end of the month I pull out the paperwork.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  13. #103
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ballina, NSW
    Posts
    900

    Default

    Yeah I thought the refills were pricey. Freight was $15. Argon mixes were $20 cheaper than pure for the G size, $10 cheaper for E, but still....
    Your quote of $140 for G argon delivered is pretty good - where's that from?

  14. #104
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    429

    Default

    That is speedgas delivered by CV jensen.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  15. #105
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ballina, NSW
    Posts
    900

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    The other thing was I asked about cheap deals that rumours talk about. Girl at counter said if I had an ABN I could negotiate with a rep directly to get up to approximately half off, at the rep's discretion. Getting an ABN seems a bit difficult for me and then it depends on the rep but half off is a good deal if they would give it.
    Hey Legion, which company was this? Thought I might find out who the rep was for my area.
    Thanks
    - Mick

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