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  1. #61
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    I guess normally one of the reasons to look for a nicely dug in bead is to satisfy oneself that there is likely to be full penetration, whereas I understand with CO2, the penetration profile is a lot deeper, so that's not such a concern.

  2. #62
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    There's certainly plenty of heat in the weld, so I'm confident it's good, but do miss the nice profile.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed.. View Post
    I rang Speedgas the other day enquiring about their E size gas cylinders (4.0 cubic mts) and that cylinder to buy was $496 ( D size to buy is $376 and 1.7 cubic mts) and I don't think it included the first fill, the E size fill of 93%Ar 5% CO2 and 2%O2 was $184 delivered. BOC was charging $198 rental per year and about $104 for a refill. So with speedgas you are paying the equivalent of 2.5 years rental up front and then you are almost paying double for the gas refill than what BOC charges forever. Probably after 4-5 years you may get slightly ahead by owning your bottle, also I live near Caboolture and they deliver about every 3-4 weeks to my area, so I wouldn't want to run out in the middle of a job! Looks like I am going to stay with yearly rental as I live within 15 minutes of a BOC dealer. Supagas rental is the same but they charge about $141 for the gas delivered. If you don't use much gas and take several years to empty an E or D size then Speedgas may work out better as you don't pay yearly rental anymore.

    I have almost emptied my bottle so I think I will switch from Supagas and back to BOC.

    Cheers

    Ed.
    Have run as many prices through a spreadsheet model as I can get my hands on so far. Using the WA Govt contract prices as comparator for rental + disposable + buy swap. Comparing over a total 10 year period. Using gas time at flow of 7L/min.

    * at less than 6 mins gas time per year (less than a cylinder), disposable is economical (at $25 for a 1L cylinder) - the only advantage of disposable is the higher purity gas 99.998% which might need a G cylinder to get ultra high purity from BOC or Air Liquide
    * despite the high cost of the buy/swap cylinders, all sizes are still cheaper than renting. The swap price is still cheaper than the WA govt price for D cylinder at 8 hours gas time per year (2 cylinders). For retail gas pricing, swap looks cheaper forever.
    * renting is cheaper when the annual rental cost is covered by the total savings from the lower refill cost compared to swap cylinders. (The buy/swap buy price can be spread over 10 years, or more if you own it and can use it forever.)
    * over 10 years, the biggest swap cylinder that will last 10 years for the amount of usage is the cheapest, so 2 hours gas time per year for a G cylinder will cost $51 a year if you ante up the $510. (People have mentioned some shops that will rent a cylinder for not much more than a refill - clearly best value if you can get it.)

    The only advantages I can see of BOC/Stargas:
    a. higher argon purity quoted as 99.995%, vs the rest supplying 99.99%.
    b. you can go get a cylinder when you run out on a weekday or Sat am.

  4. #64
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    Power10 Gases do buy/swap australia wide (according to their web site) in D and E size. Can get from my local Total Tools, so no delivery fee (quoted $50). D size cylinder buy full $335, refill (swap) $100. E size buy $455, swap $149. There is *no contract* to sign. As usual, they only swap their branded cylinder. Prices at similar to, a smidge dearer than Speedgas without paying delivery.

    For very light use (1/4 of the D cylinder, less than 1 hour at 7L/min per year) - Buy/swap D size works out cheaper than buy/swap G size.
    For 1-40 hours per year (up to 1.7 G cylinders per year, more than $50/year cost), buy/swap G size is the cheapest. (Power10 don't do that size.)
    For more use than 40 hours a year, renting is it, provided you can get an industrial rate refill $65-70/G size refill.

    The local welding shop selling BOC sells gas cylinders for more than the competitors' swap price (D 124.14+gst, E 171.37+gst, G 307.70+gst), and you apparently sign a contract with BOC, who will charge rental sometime based on some terms you decide (quarter, year, longer?)..... Might work out better for a very short time big job, depending on what minimum BOC decides to charge for the rental.

  5. #65
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    Ueee is offline Blacksmith, Cabinetmaker, Machinist, Messmaker
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    Interesting to see total tools prices.
    MY local is an Airliquid seller. Pure argon is $100 for an E, 75/25 is $75 for an E. I believe the prices are the same whether you own your own bottle and are swapping or if you rent.

    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  6. #66
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    Definitely not the same .........I was with BOC for some years and got tired of the rip off. If you want to continue hire, go with Airliquid. E size is 175 a year and 79 for the gas. However I bit the bullet and bought an E size cylinder with Speedgas. $305 for a cylinder and $135 for the gas. You must use at least 3 cylinder a year to be in front with Airliquid and 4 to be in front with BOC. If you use many cylinders a year, clearly it is better to rent and pay the cheap gas, otherwise you are better off paying more for the gas and buy your own bottle. The economics of a different size bottle may be slightly different too.
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  7. #67
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    Power10 gases and Speedgas have said there is no contract to sign, no condition, no terms. So from their perspective, they have sold us the cylinder and probably locked us in for life since nobody else will fill the cylinder, unless the ACCC or similar gets on to them.

    Power10 Argon is 99.99%
    Speedgas is 99.992%

    Why does Australia have such a low specification for welding argon of 99.99%? Lower than any country I can find so far. India 99.993, USA 99.995, Europe 99.996.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by blouis79 View Post
    Power10 gases and Speedgas have said there is no contract to sign, no condition, no terms. So from their perspective, they have sold us the cylinder and probably locked us in for life since nobody else will fill the cylinder, unless the ACCC or similar gets on to them.

    Power10 Argon is 99.99%
    Speedgas is 99.992%

    Why does Australia have such a low specification for welding argon of 99.99%? Lower than any country I can find so far. India 99.993, USA 99.995, Europe 99.996.
    I already complained to the ACCC in relation to this practice. My argument is that I bought the cylinder so it is mine and I should be able to go to BOC
    or other suppliers that sell an e size for $75 and get my cylinder refilled not have to pay $135 because they are the only one that will do it.
    If the cylinder is an approved cylinder this practice is anticompetitive and monopolic. Everyone should go to the ACCc website and write a complaint.
    http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/complaints-problems
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Everyone should go to the ACCc website and write a complaint.
    http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/complaints-problems
    I think it's worth complaining, though the likelihood of them doing something is probably proportional to the number of consumers out there. I complained about all the phone companies advertising mobile phone plans as $x/month and adding GST afterwards. That is fixed now.

    Just got Stargas prices for rent + gas. Pretty keen for BOC-equivalent purity 99.995, free metro delivery next day. Quoted rental/mth ex-GST: D $12; E $14; G $15.75. Refills ex-GST: D $47; E $57; G $84. And you are not locked in.

    At those prices, buy/swap works out cheaper only for light use <10 hours gas time or less than 1 E cylinder per year.

  10. #70
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    I just noticed that my local Total Tools AND Gasweld outlet have started selling cylinders and doing swap refills - they are open both Sat/Sun.

    D and E size bottles.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Splinter View Post
    I just noticed that my local Total Tools AND Gasweld outlet have started selling cylinders and doing swap refills - they are open both Sat/Sun.

    D and E size bottles.

    Total tools are due to open here in Mackay around November. If they do sell cylinders and do refills they are on a winner with me. WOO Hoo!

    Grahame

  12. #72
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    Hi Grahame!
    Yes, I bought my argon cylinder from National welding supplies who charge the same prices quoted by Speedgas, that is 305 for the cylinder and 135 for the gas, however, Gasweld who are also re-sellers just like Nationalwelding, are on another planet and charge $180 a refill rather than the $135 charged by Nationalwelding and the cylinder is $50 dearer.

    Question:
    How feasible is to decant Argon from one cylinder to another?
    I use to decant LPG from the 9K bottle to a small 2k bottle we had for light when I was kid, (no electricity) Never a problem and I could use up the the last litre of LPG. THe big bottle would be upside down on the shed bench and the 2K on the ground. The fitting on the small bottle had a purge valve I would open from time to time to relieve the pressure of the gas and allow more liquid to fill the small bottle.
    Is it possible to do this with Argon? Is Argon in liquid form like LPG or just under pressure?
    Rent a smaller D size cylinder and decant it into the empty E size then return it and see you in 3 month time or so. (?)
    Civilized man is the only animal clever enough to manufacture its own food,
    and the only animal stupid enough to eat it.
    Barry Groves

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    How feasible is to decant Argon from one cylinder to another?
    I use to decant LPG from the 9K bottle to a small 2k bottle we had for light when I was kid, (no electricity) Never a problem and I could use up the the last litre of LPG. THe big bottle would be upside down on the shed bench and the 2K on the ground. The fitting on the small bottle had a purge valve I would open from time to time to relieve the pressure of the gas and allow more liquid to fill the small bottle.
    Is it possible to do this with Argon? Is Argon in liquid form like LPG or just under pressure?
    Rent a smaller D size cylinder and decant it into the empty E size then return it and see you in 3 month time or so. (?)
    I think there's info on this earlier in this thread, including calcs on siphoning a big bottle into smaller ones (e.g. G size to E's). Argon doesn't liquefy, so it won't decant in the same way as LPG. The best you can hope for is to equalise the pressures between the donor and receiver tanks. For example if your receiver tank is 1/2 the size of the donor tank, then it will only end up with 1/3 of the argon, the other 2/3 will remain in the bigger tank. Some guys were looking at high pressure gas pumps to effect a better transfer, but personally I worked out that I was happy to pay the rental and not have the hassle.

  14. #74
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    Indeed correct argon and argoshield do not liquify...theyare stored as "compressed gas".
    It is a pretty straight forward process ( a serioulsy high pressure decabting hose is required) to decant but you will only get to pressure equalisation point, that means decanting same size to same size you will only get a 50% transfer.

    There are small advatages to be had going from smaller to larger...but it will never be anywhere near 100% transfer.

    As I mention there are those who um.."own a bottle"..who have been getting a full bottle from the rent only suppliers when they have a big session on.....decanting to their empty bottle and using the rented bottle as fast as they can.

    All this seems to be outdated now because there are at least 3 suppliers that will sell you a bottle and do a swap & go type service.

    speedgas...on the east coast as far north as brisbane..at the moment
    power 10.....with a number of tool shops as agents
    and
    the wesfarmers operation.......who seem to be in quite a few places ( in particular minimg towns) including mackay and townsville

    This whole market seems to have changed in the last 6 months.....I'll be very interested to see what happens in the future.

    Hopefully the big players wont buy out the competition to get rid of them.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  15. #75
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    just been doing a bit of looking and ringing arround.

    seems like the industrial gas market is diversifying and fast.....there must be money to be made.

    damn straight when I estimate the rental companies are making back the cost of their cylinders in the first year of rental.

    at the moment speedgas and power 10 seem to be the only operations promoting the wide scale outright purchase of cylinders.

    coregas...the wesfarmers operation currently have a nationwide pressence but are still running the bottle rental model.
    However....Coregas/ wesfarmers are running bottle purchase operation in a limited bumber of wesfarmers owned Bunnings stores in the south......the lady at coregas tells me the intention is to extend this operation nationwide late this year early next year.

    Supagas in the south and the west......but not on QLD are running an industrial gas operation...I believe on the rental model.

    Elgas an LPG player have now extended into a full range of industrial gasses...but they too are running the rental model.

    So it seems the CIG/ liquidair duopoly is a thing of the past....and maybe there may be some price competition....particularly in the small sales.


    Now a couple of things to consider.
    Speedgas will sell me a new full E size bottle of argon or argon mix MIG gas for arround $450 delivered...they will do an exchange/ fill for around $130 delivered.....bearing in mind various costs and a profit margin I recon that puts the actual wholesale cost of an empty cylinder to any of the gass companies at $150 or below.

    So renting us that cylinder for around $170 to $200 a year is clearly very very profitable.

    Consider further if you have a steel argon/ argoshield bottle from CIG.....it may have been made and in circulation since the 70's or early eighties.....think about the profits made on that bottle.

    Just as a matter of interest...have a look at the bottles you have.....give em a scratch and see how many coats of paint are on it...then have a good look at the bottle..somewhere either on the bottom rim or near the kneck there will be a date of manufature.....just for $#!ts & giggles see what that date is.

    Over the years CIG lost thousands of bottles due to their total failure to even attempt to track and control bottles for decades.....now that it is nearly impossible to get a grey bottle filled and the spreading of some rumours of police prosecution and household searches.....CIG bottles have been turning up at dumps and gas agencies by the truck load.

    My nephew a metal worker who has worked in a couple of mining towns tells me..for a while there CIG was sending trucks up specially to drag the "surrendered " bottles back to Brisbane because of the huge volume......ya think those bottles are being dumped...not on your life.....they will be recomplianced and put back into circulation.

    Anyway just some thaughts.

    Ive just spoken to both speedgas and Total Tools.......total tools are only doing argon and mixes.....speed gas are also doing CO2 and NItrogen and their mixes too and moving into oxygen.

    Total tools are quoting $159 for a fill/ exchange..and I have to collect it from about half an hour away.
    Seems i'll be going with speedgas.....its just a matter of do I go with the E or the G.......the G is much cheaper for the amount of gas you buy.....and if I'm not paying rent...I might go that way.......I just have to think about handling and storing the G.

    Well off to the charts and out will the tape measure..to see ig the G will fit on may trolly.

    cheers
    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

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