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  1. #136
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    Returned my last rented cylinder today .... mr CIG

    Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
    Most powertools have sharp teeth.
    People are made of meat.
    Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.

  2. #137
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
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    46
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    Bumping interesting thread, looking to hear updates.

    Renting my bog old argon bottle always left a bad taste in my mouth, and this was confounded by over a year of renting with no use after my (chinese) ac/dc TIG welder died (and I couldn't get it fixed). I finally gave up on the welder and gave the bottle back in bitter defeat, and I have missed welding ever since.

    Now with the problematic welder in an interested electricians hands I am either going to get it fixed or bin it and buy another TIG, so I am very interested in the new developments detailed in this thread.

    I recently got given an old CIG nitrogen bottle (neighbour throwing it out) that I was looking into decanting some argon into... how hard could it be I thought... I have the metal fab friends at hand with racks of argon bottles... then after a very little bit of research this whole scheme was seeming a bit too dangerous/risky/foolish... so it is great to hear that we can now own our own bottles.

    Question.
    Is Power10 the only option for Melbournites? How are peoples experience with Power 10 so far?
    Anything else to add? Go for it.

    I am just glad that the criminal cartels grip on the domestic welding gas industry seems to be slipping.

  3. #138
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    1,836

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    In the near future i will be looking to sell my D size Argon cylinder, what prices would i be looking at? should i offer it cheaper if empty? should i sell it refilled?

    the D size runs out far to quick for my wallet so looking to upgrade to the E size but than transporting becomes a issue and the size of the cylinder is not as portable as the D

    Quote Originally Posted by hansp77 View Post
    Bumping interesting thread, looking to hear updates.

    Renting my bog old argon bottle always left a bad taste in my mouth, and this was confounded by over a year of renting with no use after my (chinese) ac/dc TIG welder died (and I couldn't get it fixed). I finally gave up on the welder and gave the bottle back in bitter defeat, and I have missed welding ever since.

    Now with the problematic welder in an interested electricians hands I am either going to get it fixed or bin it and buy another TIG, so I am very interested in the new developments detailed in this thread.

    I recently got given an old CIG nitrogen bottle (neighbour throwing it out) that I was looking into decanting some argon into... how hard could it be I thought... I have the metal fab friends at hand with racks of argon bottles... then after a very little bit of research this whole scheme was seeming a bit too dangerous/risky/foolish... so it is great to hear that we can now own our own bottles.

    Question.
    Is Power10 the only option for Melbournites? How are peoples experience with Power 10 so far?
    Anything else to add? Go for it.

    I am just glad that the criminal cartels grip on the domestic welding gas industry seems to be slipping.
    I bought my D size Argon cylinder around 2-3 years ago it has paid for it's self just in the convenience in not hiring from BOC and being held by the nuts altho BOC did have cheaper refills from memory

    mine is purchased thru SpeedGas (National Welding in Sydney) cost me $310 filled at the time of purchase

  4. #139
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Near Rockhampton
    Posts
    270

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    Quote Originally Posted by hansp77 View Post
    Bumping interesting thread, looking to hear updates.


    I recently got given an old CIG nitrogen bottle (neighbour throwing it out) that I was looking into decanting some argon into... how hard could it be I thought... I have the metal fab friends at hand with racks of argon bottles... then after a very little bit of research this whole scheme was seeming a bit too dangerous/risky/foolish... so it is great to hear that we can now own our own bottles.
    With the right gear and some common sense it can be done safely.
    Decanting Hose Set; DCSHV153130G - PMC Gas Control

    If you were using a nitrogen cylinder you should rig up an A/C vac pump to fully empty the cylinder to reduce contamination.
    John

  5. #140
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
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    46
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    2

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    Thanks for the link John,
    if there was no way to purchase my own argon bottle then I might still be more interested in decanting. What put me off was first reading the scare stories and inherent risk, and then realising that I would pretty much have to put that risk onto either of my friends and their workplaces in order to decant off half a bottle of gas from them. I would also be paying my friends for the gas, so all up (given I don't think they have the best deals on gas themselves) I am not sure how much cheaper or easier it would be to go that route.

    Most of my use for welding is small motorbike fabrication stuff for my self, and other home based stuff, usually nothing commercial, so an E sized bottle should last me a fairly long time (I would go bigger if they had bigger though).

    Although this nitrogen bottle looks fine, the last time it was in test was 2001. Not sure what I will do with it. It would be nice to be able to test it and fill it with scuba-air and park it in my fire bunker, but I doubt the scuba tank fillers will want to go near it.

    Free to a good home if anyone wants it, or it might end up going back to CIG!

  6. #141
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    30

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    Some Bunnings stores now have argon and migshield in a D size bottles for $200 deposit, $99 refill
    Currently the stores on Brisbane southside that I have been told have bottles are Underwood, Cannon Hill and Browns Plains

    Link Coregas – Trade N Go Gas™ – Products

  7. #142
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
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    71
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    2,713

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    In Tasmania, Nubco and Kennedys Welding are both selling bottles outright.

    Gas fill prices are somewhat higher than on cylinder rental plans so it all depends on individual usage. For me it's cheaper to purchase an E cylinder of argon for TIG welding as I don't go through a bottle in 2 years. Migshield, jury is still out, might swap to straight CO2 and flux cored wire for outside jobs.

    I handed in my last rental bottle just before Easter. Happy day, one less recurring bill to pay.

    PDW

  8. #143
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    4

    Default Where there's a will there's a way.

    Quote Originally Posted by hansp77 View Post
    Although this nitrogen bottle looks fine, the last time it was in test was 2001. Not sure what I will do with it. It would be nice to be able to test it and fill it with scuba-air and park it in my fire bunker, but I doubt the scuba tank fillers will want to go near it.

    Free to a good home if anyone wants it, or it might end up going back to CIG!
    It is possible to purchase an argon cylinder in Melb. I think there is also a Ballarat option and maybe by now there may be others. One of the affiliates of the NSW group doing OYO cyls and refills is involved with the co in Dandenong. If Dandenong is not too far out of your way then that is an option as it's pick up only changeover, no deliveries last time I checked it out. Price is comparable with the NSW system. Best point of this system is the bottle is always in test although the gas is dearer than rental system rates, but not much.

    Another way to have gas on hand is as you have thought, decant from someone elses bottle, and the way to get around putting your friends on the spot for this is to rent a bottle from a short term industrial type hire facility so you pay two weeks rent say or a month and get a full bottle supplied. The way the bottles are made, the smaller the bottle the lower the pressure of the gas, the big G bottles are built like tanks and have the max pressure capability, E is not far behind. If you hire a small bottle and decant into a large bottle you are capturing a very large proportion of the small bottle and definately not stressing the large bottles pressure capability. Once you have decanted the small bottle start using up the remaining gas before the hire period finishes, and keep the large bottle for later.

    I could not find a commercially prepared decanting hose when I needed one so made one up from CO2 fittings from a brewers supplies and some hydraulic hose plus a few fittings to get it all to match. All fit for purpose stuff. I did not fit valves or gauges to the hose and found I did not need to have them. I leave one bottle fitting 1/4 turn loose and purge the hose for a split second through that then tighten it and decant slowly. First time I did it I had both bottles lying on their sides outstretched on the hose cos I figured that was safer than me standing with my head next to anything. Purists might choke on the above but it worked fine for me, biggest surprise was there were no surprises.

    If you are concerned about the remaining nitogen in the bottle you have, vent it to atmosphere until it stops expelling, put a couple of bar of argon into it and then vent it to atmosphere again, you now have one third the amount of nitrogen you had after the first venting. You can do the maths by volume and pressure to work out the final percentage content of nitrogen in the mix. If its less than 1% its highly unlikely that you will be able to notice it. Next time it will be half again.

    vertigo

  9. #144
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
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    56

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    My local Total tools store sells gas bottles as well.
    Power10 Gases Program - Owning Your Own Welding Gas Made Simple! | Total Tools

  10. #145
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo View Post
    If you are concerned about the remaining nitogen in the bottle you have, vent it to atmosphere until it stops expelling, put a couple of bar of argon into it and then vent it to atmosphere again, you now have one third the amount of nitrogen you had after the first venting. You can do the maths by volume and pressure to work out the final percentage content of nitrogen in the mix. If its less than 1% its highly unlikely that you will be able to notice it. Next time it will be half again.
    If 1% N in Ar can be tolerated the it unnecessary to do this

    EG D size bottle of Ar contains 1700 L (at 1 bar) and has an internal volume of 2.24L

    If a D size bottle containing 2.24 L of N at 1 bar is filled with 1700 L of Ar, the concentration of N in that bottle will be

    2.24/1700 = 0.13%

    I don't know how readily commercial Ar fillers would be prepared to put Ar into an N bottle

  11. #146
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    I think your decimal place is off a little ... 2.24L in a D size bottle?
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  12. #147
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    Oct 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    I think your decimal place is off a little ... 2.24L in a D size bottle?
    I think that 2.24L is the actual internal volume at 1 atm, not the volume of gas normally stored in it.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
    __________________________________________________
    Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy.

  13. #148
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vernonv View Post
    I think that 2.24L is the actual internal volume at 1 atm, not the volume of gas normally stored in it.
    Actually that's not right - the D size are ~10L internal water volume.
    So multiply that figure above by ~4 - still much less than 1%.

  14. #149
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    much morelike it Bob.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  15. #150
    BobL is online now Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    much morelike it Bob.
    According to Wikipedia the US D size bottles are 2.24L

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